December 14, 2019

Impeachment?

Okay, I know you want to talk about this, and rightly so.  And since I would rather not the other posts this week hijacked in the comments thread, I am putting out a second post today.

My opinion on this is no more informed than anyone else’s, so I am just going to copy some relevant links that the New York Times Daily Briefing sent me, and the rest is up to you. I would only ask that you seek to make your comments Jesus-shaped, as much as is possible on a political issue.

 

Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused President Trump on Tuesday of betraying the country as she announced that the Democratic-led House would begin a formal impeachment inquiry.
Ms. Pelosi had been reluctant to start the process because of the likely political consequences, but she said that revelations about Mr. Trump’s dealings with Ukraine and his administration’s stonewalling of Congress had left the House no choice.
Mr. Trump is accused of pressuring the Ukrainian president to open a corruption investigation into Joe Biden and his son during a phone call in July. Mr. Trump has said that the call, shortly after he froze nearly $400 million in aid to Ukraine, was “totally appropriate.” He promised to release a transcript today.
Related: The call is said to be part of a whistle-blower complaint by a member of the intelligence community. Officials were working on Tuesday to release a redacted version of the complaint and let congressional investigators speak to the whistle-blower.
Response: Mr. Trump said the impeachment battle would be “a positive” for his chances of winning a second term next year.
The details: Here’s where every House member stands on impeachment and how the process works. (Only two presidents, Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, have been impeached, and both were ultimately acquitted. Richard Nixon resigned in 1974 to avoid being impeached.)
What’s next: Ms. Pelosi is said to have told the six House committees that are investigating Mr. Trump to send their best cases on potentially impeachable offenses to the Judiciary Committee, although she has not provided a timeline.
News analysis: “In contrast to the murkiness of the special counsel’s report on Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible obstruction of justice by Mr. Trump, Democrats see the current allegations as damningly clear-cut,” our chief Washington correspondent writes.
Perspectives: Debatable, a newsletter from our Opinion section, has points of view from across the political spectrum on when it’s right to impeach.

Comments

  1. Klasie Kraalogies says

    As a ghastly outsider, let me this before the comment wars begin.

    The importance of clear and easily understood laws thatbprotsct citizens as well as the democracy itself are so important. We see thatbuere, and even more so, in the current goings-on in the UK. An independent judiciary, including prosecuting authority is an essential part of this. The problem as exemplified here is that judges in the US, all the way to the Supreme Court, are inherently partisan appointments. And when it comes to making Congress and the Senate into authorities that convict and judge, so to speak, it becomes a matter of political calculation. This is not a healthy situation. It explains Pelosi’s reluctance.

    To be honest though, I am not clear on how to remedy that.

    • Me neither. When decent (or at least competent) people are in charge, the flaws in a system can be safely ignored, or at least accommodated. When partisan politicos, not to mention self-described “chaos agents”, are in charge, it undermines everything.

      Do I think Trump has done things worthy of impeachment? Yes. Do I think impeaching him will fix our problems? Sadly, no. I fear we’re too far gone for that. 🙁

      • whatever is done regarding Trump, let’s hope it is LEGAL

        • we have problem:

          apparently trumps white house lawyers feel that he is above the law . . . that he cannot be prosecuted, but ALSO that no one may investigate him

          this is unconstitutional, as the over-sight function or Congress IS to check on those who work against our country’s interests, and if it’s the President, then he needs over-sight as much as anyone else, he is NOT above the law of THIS land

    • Adam Tauno Williams says

      > in the US, all the way to the Supreme Court, are inherently partisan appointments

      +1,000

    • The problem in this specific case isn’t that Supreme Court appointees are partisan, but rather that no court system at all has authority to deal with even clear-cut crimes by this president or any other. Supreme Court justices can rule how they like against a politician, and they’re still in the job for life… Folks from Congress can lose re-election for voting against their president even if there’s an obvious crime. The process of impeachment just relies on people with the wrong set of motivations.

    • >> judges in the US, all the way to the Supreme Court, are inherently partisan appointments.

      that’s demonstrably not true. Most judges are directly elected. In my own state of Washington the justices on our supreme court are elected.

      It’s only at the federal level where they are appointed by the president – and only with the consent of the Senate.

      So unless you are willing to elect federal judges up and down the ladder…….

      The solution is actually rather simple – make the judiciary (and the entire federal government) so reduced in scope and power that it’s not an existential crisis for one side or the other when the “wrong” person gets elected.

      Congress has over the years abandoned oversight to the judiciary. That can be rectified. But that would take a citizenry willing to accept that not every and in fact most problems cannot and should not be solved at the federal level.

      The problem is too much power concentrated in D.C.

      Absolute power corrupts…..absolutely.

      • “that would take a citizenry willing to accept that not every and in fact most problems cannot and should not be solved at the federal level.”

        Unfortunately, too many problems we face today – environmental issues, corporate financial and workers rights shenanigans, transportation and power infrastructure – that are far beyond the power of state and local governments to handle. You can’t have a continent-wide unified state without a federal government with some teeth.

        • thatotherjean says

          This. And the Trump administration has been pulling what teeth the Federal government has at a very rapid pace. There will be much to repair when they are out of office. We face country-wide problems that our forefathers never dreamed of, that can only be fixed–or even attempted–on a national scale.

        • sorry but that’s utter utter nonsense.

          States can and do work effectively (and ineffectively) on environmental issues. The federal government is exactly the worst possible player in this space save for a superfund cleanup site. Local people know what is best for them.

          Ditto for the others with the possible exception of transportation. Some federal involvement bringing together the cooperation of states is needed there. But energy and power? Please. States get together and work collectively on power grid issues just fine without Washington.

          Mother of mercy there’s a lot of nanny-statism going on this site.

          • “States can and do work effectively (and ineffectively) on environmental issues.”

            But pollution, air quality, and water issues don’t neatly break off at state lines. Just ask California’s neighboring states about its water demands.

            “The federal government is exactly the worst possible player in this space save for a superfund cleanup site.”

            Other than leaving it to the corporations to clean up after themselves. If corporations are national, so must their oversight be.

            “Local people know what is best for them.”

            So California should be allowed it’s tougher emissions standards? 😉

            “Mother of mercy there’s a lot of nanny-statism going on this site.”

            Somebody has to tackle these issues. Localities don’t have the resources or jurisdiction to deal with national/multinational companies by themselves. States are only marginally better. This is not the mid-20th century anymore – Big Government is no longer the more pressing threat. If you want to live life in a modern society, you have to have modern governance. Libertarian anarchism is a pipedream.

    • Right on, Klasie. There are so many holes in the American legal system for a president to go through, it’s pathetic. I didn’t know it was so until this presidency. This is a big problem, bigger than can be patched up at this late date in the game.

    • There’s pretty much no chance of impeachment succeeding. But it’s dangerous to continue to set precedents for more and more outrageous behavior being accepted with no push-back.

      We used to have a norm that presidential candidates released their tax returns. We used to have a norm that presidents didn’t interfere with the Fed. We used to have a norm that presidents (at least in recent times) couldn’t get away with making racist comments. And with Trump, we may be seeing much more important norms being broken as well, having to do with self-dealing and abuse of power and knowingly providing false information and so on. Whether future presidents will feel empowered to follow in Trump’s footsteps, or will be chastened by Trump’s example, will depend on what sort of consequences Trump faces.

      Even if you’re in a situation where someone is powerful enough to get away with a particular sin or crime without consequences, you still have a responsibility to speak up and name that crime for what it is. Otherwise all you’re doing is emboldening the most corrupt and dishonest elements of our society, both now and in the future.

  2. I’m no Trump supporter. I loathe and despise his personal petty politics.

    That said – this is complete garbage and bogus and the Democrats appear to be willingly walking into a trap.

    Biden is on record (video no less!) of bragging that he was able to get the same prosecutor that was investigating the firm that hired his son (with zero relevant experience) – FIRED by threatening to withhold 1 BILLION dollars.

    But somehow Trump is the problem.

    Honestly – all the democrats had to do was appear to be less crazy than Trump and they can’t even do that. It’s truly the twilight zone when Trump is the sane person in the room.

    • Adam Tauno Williams says

      > Biden is on record (video no less!) of bragging

      Nope.

    • I can’t say whether what Hunter Biden did or didn’t was kosher or not, but the problem here is when it’s mixed with withholding federal money set for Ukraine. If Trump says, “I’m withholding this money until you charge him with a crime,” they have incentive to find a crime even if there isn’t one. It becomes an inherently political bribe. We don’t know exactly what he said yet, but if he said that, it’s clearly bribery, using taxpayer money at that.

      Any investigation into Hunter Biden should be completely detached from our other political interactions with Ukraine.

      • the transcript is out – go read it. Pretty clear.

        • transcript?

          your kidding!

          it’s another White House con job

          • Right. He altered the hurricane map; he wouldn’t hesitate to alter the transcripts. And don’t tell me there aren’t ways to do that, and make the alteration convincing.

            • you’re nuts. Seriously – this is rapid conservative conspirarcy-theory level nuts.

              • Possibly, but not nearly as nuts as claiming that millions of fraudulent votes were cast for Hillary Clinton in the last election, or that there is a secret Deep State out to remove one from the Oval Office, or that the previous president of the US was in fact not American, or that the Clintons had Jeffrey Epstein murdered (along with Seth Rich and a host of others), etc., etc. Fortunately, nutty as I may be, I lack the ability to command the American nuclear arsenal; too bad we can’t say the same thing about the other guy.

          • It’s not worth the paper it’s written on.

      • Even if it isn’t explicit in the transcript, it’s pretty implicit. ‘We’ve been good to Ukraine . . . but it hasn’t been reciprocal . . . Now I have a favor to ask of you . . .’ It’s like Harvey Weinstein telling a young aspiring starlet, ‘It’d be nice if you’d take your clothes off’. He doesn’t need to say ‘or else you’ll never work in this town’.

    • It is known.
      Trump supporters often start out with ‘I am no Trump supporter’

    • Wrong. This is about a president soliciting a foreign power to dig up dirt on his political rival. End of story. It doesn’t matter whether the alleged dirt is real or not. Inviting foreign interference in a domestic election is the issue here.

      • Sounds like the Russia report with Steele paid by Clinton and the DNC

        • Yep. Some selective memory appears to be occurring.

        • So wasn’t the Steele dossier initially paid for by a conservative organization that did not want Trump to be the nominee? But one Trump secured the nomination it was shopped to the Democrats who willingly picked it up. Then it ultimately ended up in the hands of Republican John McCain who turned it over to the FBI. Crazy.

          Regardless, the FBI Russia-Trump investigation was not based on the dossier.

          • thatotherjean says

            Yes, it was. And no matter how many times Republicans said so, the Trump-Russia investigation was NOT basedon the Steele dossier.

            • david greene/other jean, What was it based on? Why were the FISA warrants approved?

              • Because George Papadopoulos admitted to having over 2 dozen contacts with Russian intelligence agents in the Spring of 2016 and boasted about it to the Australian ambassador to London over drinks (he admitted to that in his sentencing statement). He also kept the campaign in the loop via emails. The Aussies notified the FBI and they started looking into it in July 2016, long before McCain turned the dossier over to the FBI in December 2016.

                • thatotherjean says

                  Thanks. After yesterday’s trip to the dentist, I’m afraid I’m in no shape to do any serious research, but I remember that Papadopoulos admitted to the parts you cited.

                • Greg, that is not the 4 FISA Warrants were based on , it was the Steele Dossier, Low level Papadopoulos was set up by a sting to start the process. Carter Page not even charged. It was all a set up . McCabe testified no Steele Dossier no FISA warrants. too detailed but if you want to follow the ball you can. if not go with the main stream narrative, Mueller 2 year investigation , No Collusion. Fired Comey, McCabe, Struck, Page and several other top FBI/Justice officials. Basically tried to get rid of Trump , thought Hillary would win and did not cover tracks well enough but they are lawyers and might beat the rap , legal system working but not justice. Bad for Democracy.

                  I know the majority retort will I am a Trump guy and nut, but really follow the ball, they tried a silent coup using their legal positions . Terrible.

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        This is about Trump Tower Corporate Culture transferring intact to the Presidency.

        Big-money Real Estate in NYC has been a dirty business as far back as the heyday of Tammany Hall, and this is the type of shady stuff that goes on in that environment. Trump has always run the White House as Trump Tower DC; unfortunately, the Executive Branch is vastly different from the Trump Organization.

        But none of this matters to The Base, including the Born-Again Base. Christainese or English-speaking, they will Defend the Faith and Defend their God to the death..

        • thatotherjean says

          This. Trump is running the presidency as though it’s the same as his business, but what he could get away with in business in New York–provided nobody looked very hard at what he was doing–doesn’t fly in government service. He still hasn’t figured that out, and his base doesn’t really care.

          • Trump is winning. He is bending the American system of government to his will, gutting whatever was good in it, and manipulating the rest. He is likely to get away with it, and be in the Oval Office for a long time, longer than we could ever previously have imagined any president could be.

            • once he got away with hurting the children, then of course he knows he’s got a green light

            • Headless Unicorn Guy says

              “President for Life. We really should try that here.”
              — Donald J Trump, remarking on President Xi of China

    • I’m with you on this, I do not like Trump and like Biden. But Biden is at fault here.

  3. thatotherjean says

    Another piece of the problem, aside from, but related to, those that Klasie has outlined, is that our government has been run largely by custom and tradition, with a minimum of actual laws. Trump has blown through those traditions as though they had never existed, and upended most of the gentlemen’s agreements which controlled the conduct of government officials. When he’s gone, however that happens, the seriously important traditions and customs will need to be replaced by laws, to make what should be proper conduct perfectly clear to those in charge, with appropriate penalties for those who do not abide by them..

    As Klasie says, an independent judiciary, including the Department of Justice–which Trump seems to have corrupted–is essential, and lines should be clearly drawn, along with appropriate penalties for transgression. Under the Constitution, which outlines the procedure for impeachment, in which the House impeaches and the Senate convicts–both of which are political bodies–I don’t see how we get around the political calculation. Perhaps that is why there have been so few impeachments, and all have failed to convict.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      But the final vote is the Senate, and today’s Senate bleats for Trump as the Roman Senate did for Caesar after Caesar after Caesar, in terror of Trump’s Base one Twitter Tweet away.

      With the additional factor that White Evangelicals are among the most Fanatical of Trump Fanatics, the core of his Base.

      And the secular part of his Base are “MAD AS HELL AND NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE! STICK IT TO ‘EM! STICK IT TO ‘EM! STICK IT TO ‘EM!”

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      Problem is too many too detailed laws can be stifling (remember the Pharisees?). As well as just making a lot of lawyers rich looking for loophole after loophole (if not loopholes deliberately written into the laws at their inception).

    • rhymeswithplague says

      thatotherjean advocates “an independent judiciary, including the Department of Justice” but the Department of Jusice is not part of the judiciary, it is part of the executive branch. Top dog there is the Attorney General, who both serves at the President’s pleasure and presents cases to the Supreme Court.

      Oh, what a tangled web we weave….

    • The idea norms of norms was thrown out of the window when Republicans refused to even hold hearings on a Supreme Court nominee. After that, the flood.

  4. Should Trump have been elected? Nope.
    Should he be impeached? Probably.
    Is impeachment the best strategy approaching the next election? I’m not sure if it is.

    None of the Democrats strike me as very intelligent or savvy. I’m already against Trump. I want a candidate who is for something not just against Trump. Or worse, merely a Democratic version of Trump. We already tried stupid. Let’s try smart next time.

    • We’re being left with the option of taking various types of poison. They might come in different bottles, but they’re all gonna end up being pretty darn harmful.

      As much as I dislike Trump–check that, LOATHE Trump–me-thinks the Democrat’s strategy and tactics against him will just spiral our nation into an endless loop of vengeful politics… more of the same, in other words.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      Problem is, the Dems look like they’re being run by their Lunatic Fringe (more accurately Fringes; the universe cannot have more than one center). Once the Clinton Machine (Hillary for 2016, Hillary for 2020, Hillary for 2024, etc) got derailed after 2016, it left a power vacuum that’s currently being filled by Cro-Magnon anarchy.

      Much like the myriad of new splinter parties in former Warsaw Pact countries after Gorby’s Fire Sale, where for the first few years they splintered the electorate all over the place while the Communists retained enough of their established monolithic Machine to keep a lot of clout in the coalition..

      • Name one policy of this fringe that you would call consider “lunatic”. Get off your stupid “both sides” fix and get specific. What policy is being promoted by any member of Congress that qualifies, in your estimation, as “lunatic”.

    • Too many laws may be stifling, but Trump is evidence that it’s better than too few. We don’t need every custom and tradition turned into law, and there will probably be acrimonious debate over which ones are most important; but if we do nothing, we’re going to wind up in this mess again, now that it has been tried and succeeded. We can’t afford another Trump, or we might as well give up and become the Banana Republic we’re beginning to resemble.

    • Daniel Jepsen says

      “Should Trump have been elected? Nope.
      Should he be impeached? Probably.
      Is impeachment the best strategy approaching the next election? I’m not sure if it is.”

      Yeah, these are my two thoughts on the matter also. I hope the democrats are not overplaying their hand, like the GOP did in the Clinton impeachment.

  5. Que sera, sera. 🙂

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      At least we RCCs don’t go all End Time Prophecy Checklist every time anything like this goes down.

      • well, it ain’t over yet, Headless . . . six more years to go

        Trump asked someone before he was sworn in
        ‘if we have nukes, why can’t we use them?’

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Only six?

          I remember when Clinton was on is second term, some of his Base got pretty vocal about repealing the amendment that limited the Prez to two terms/eight years. And Trump’s Base is bigger and more fanatical on the average.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            “Targaryen, Lannister, Baratheon… Every Great House tries to stop the Wheel with themselves on top. Forever.”
            — Tirian Lannister, Game of Thrones

            • I hear you 🙂

              imagine Trump declared ‘ dictator for life ‘

              grim thought, this

              but that BASE, they will go on and on and goodness know where the hatred and racism will take them, they will surely find another ‘Trump’ to do their dirty work

              • Headless Unicorn Guy says

                imagine Trump declared ‘ dictator for life ‘

                Evangelical Christians will Rejoice.
                “WE HAVE OUR CYRUS!”

  6. The continued increasing craziness of American politics only continues to solidify my opinion that God really does have it in for the good ol’ US of A.

    • And England.

      • God has it in for us only insofar as He is allowing our national and cultural sins to carry us to their logical conclusions.

    • Adam Tauno Williams says

      And my ancestors where mistaken to leave Finland – the happiest nation on earth. 🙁

      • A.T. Williams, Why are the Finns so happy?

        • they sure treat their children well 🙂

        • whip per will says

          It’s almost like ethnically homogeneous white countries tend to be happier and have lower crime rates than countries who overrun themselves with the third world. Weird. I thought diversity was our strength!

          • Whip per will, I think you nailed it. Finland about 5.5 people of same culture. Give the Nordic happy countries about 5 to 10 years of immigration surge and watch the happy meter drop. I am happy I live in USA and would not move to Finland . However, how dare you to speak the truth, they need the immigrants to support their happy welfare system. The socialist pyramid needs a big base. It will not work as immigrants will not think or act like Finns and it all topples. The immigrants will be happy to live off the system until it folds.

          • ….ethnically homogeneous white countries tend to be happier and have lower crime rates than countries who overrun themselves with the third world….

            No white supremacy to see here, folks. Just keep moving along….

            • whip per will says

              Rather than respond to what I’ve said (which is objectively true, by the way), you simply accuse me of white supremacy (which is not true at all). You’ve lost the ability to think critically, but somehow you must feel very brave. Keep sleeping…

              • How’s the ethnically homogeneous white country of Russia (Russia proper, not the Federation) doing under your theory? Or Greece?

                Well-run social democracy in Western European countries is what makes them happier and lower in crime.

                Now I’m going back to sleep, and hopefully wake up on the other side of this racist presidency. I’m too old to deal with this sh-t.

                • whip per will says

                  Certainly government plays a role in citizens’ happiness and the society’s crime rates.

                  And your comment illustrates another point I’d like to make: the term “white” is used only as a way to artificially group peoples of European heritage in order to gain power over them. Sometimes it is used by legit white supremacists (still waiting on an apology for your false accusation), a nearly extinct breed of fools.

                  To put a finer point on it, there is vast and beautiful diversity within, for instance, the British Isles, and to lump them in with everyone else who is today considered white is a disservice to everyone involved.

                  This vast and beautiful diversity is found also in Africa–South Africa, for example. The promise that *in Christ* there is neither Jew nor Greek, etc. is a promise of transcendence–not one of destruction. Progressives destroy diversity even as they cynically call for more of it. Christianity celebrates diversity, even as it transfigures it.

                  But I wouldn’t expect you to understand or even to have heard this before. You’re not a Christian, and I don’t fault you for that, though I pray that you will one day become one.

                  • You were the one who lumped all European ethnic groups together as “white countries.”

                    One of few hard-and-fast rules on this blog is that questioning another Christian’s salvation is prohibited; claiming they are not Christian when they identify as such is the same thing.

                    Btw, you are a bully and liar. I pray that one day you will become a decent human being.

                    • whip per will says

                      Uh oh, I’ve infringed upon the rules under the hall monitor’s ever-vigilant watch.

                      Wheresoever there be a breach of the status quo, Robert F shall be there. Whensoever there be a policy violation, Robert F shall be there. Cower in fear, thee impious fiend, there be no hiding from the Eternal Bureaucrat, Robert F his name.

                      Stunning and Brave is he–Stunning and Brave!

                    • You sound like Gollum.

                    • whip per will says

                      And you’re Wormwood.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            Diversity can be strength through a cultural “hybrid vigor”, but what we have these days is Diversity(TM) for the sake of Diversity(TM).

            And like many other things (like happiness or self-esteem), Diversity for the sake of Diversity is a dead end in itself. Aim straight for it and you’ll never hit it; aim for another worthy goal and it can come as a secondary effect.

            Aside: I’m reminded of Zuckerberg before Congress, completely out to sea outside of his home planet. A TIME article not long after cited a former colleague that to Zuck, the holy grail of goals is to connect everyone on the Web through Social Media. At which point, the following imaginary dialog went ZANG! in my head::
            ZUCK: And then Everyone will be Connected!
            ME: And what next?
            ZUCK: Everyone Will Be Connected!
            ME. And then what?
            ZUCK: BUT EVERYONE WILL BE CONNECTED!

            • whip per will says

              Mostly agreed.

              Clearly, you can’t have both diversity and equality. They are mutually exclusive. I am firmly on the side of diversity, but only in an organic–as opposed to, say, a legally enforced–sense.

              ——-

              I might add this to the dialog.

              ZUCKERBOT: Everyone Will Be Connected.
              ME: What next?
              ZUCKERBOT: Then Everyone Will Be Controlled.

        • this sounds fascinating, Ted

          I think we could use a good dose of Nordic socialism in this country, especially the way these countries take care of their kids . . . wow!

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            Nordic countries tend to be significantly smaller in size and population than the USA, and (until the latest surge of immigration) more ethnically and culturally homogenous. There may be a maximum practical size for the Nordic System; like Germany’s Autobahns vs American Interstates, it may not be able to scale up well.

        • Klasie Kraalogies says

          I might investigate this!

    • Randy Thompson says

      “. . .solidfy my opinion that God really does have it in for the good ol’ US of A.”

      Yes.

      I’ve been repeatedly struck by the phrase “given over” in Romans 1, which refers to much more than sexual practices. If judgment day (whenever and wherever that may be) is about getting what we think we want, we as a country are in trouble. So too is much (not all) of Christianity in “the good ol’ US of A” that has an inflated sense of politics and a deflated sense of the Kingdom of God.

      • “much (not all) of Christianity in “the good ol’ US of A” that has an inflated sense of politics and a deflated sense of the Kingdom of God.”

        Worse – they think they are one and the same.

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        For what it’s worth, my sister-in-law’s Spiritual Warfare Prophet claimed God told him in 2008 “Now My Judgment on America Begins”.

        • Of course they did, because they hated Obama. The present day Spiritual Warfare BS is all about politics.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            That same Spiritual Warfare Prophet claimed a picture I bought at FurCon 2010 (of an elegant cobra-woman in a white dress) was Demon-possessed and responsible for my post-con depression.

            You can guess how much credibility I give to Spiritual Warriors and Prophets.

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        I’ve been repeatedly struck by the phrase “given over” in Romans 1, which refers to much more than sexual practices.

        But Christians (and by projection their God) obsess over Pelvic Issues.

  7. Much of the political and cultural elite never accepted President Trump’s election as legitimate and have tried one tactic after another to either keep him from taking office or to remove him from office once inaugurated. None of the previous attempts succeeded; I doubt this one will either. Don’t forget that even if the House impeaches Mr. Trump a majority of senators might not support a conviction, much less the two-thirds majority necessary to remove a president from office.

    Democrats might also want to look back and see what happened when House Republicans voted to impeach then-President Bill Clinton 21 years ago. Republicans lost seats in the 1998 midterm elections, a rarity for the party out of power in the White House. Mr. Clinton’s popularity ratings soared during and after his impeachment and trial. And then-Vice President Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 presidential election, although he lost the Electoral College and thus the presidency.

    • “Much of the political and cultural elite never accepted President Trump’s election as legitimate and have tried one tactic after another to either keep him from taking office or to remove him from office once inaugurated”

      Funny, I live in DC and work in the government, and the only thing I’ve seen that approaches this is the process that Pelosi just kicked off. And she was pretty much forced to by the substance of the matter at hand. Do lots of people here not like Trump? Certainly. But complaints and contempt do not constitute efforts to remove him from office. People *are* allowed to not like him and try to stymie his agenda – Republicans did that to Obama all the time. That’s how the system works (such as it does).

      • Randy Thompson says

        “Such as it does.”

        Yes. Government is now about political factions, right and left, throwing as many monkey wrenches into the workings of government as possible to thwart any agenda other than theirs. Ours has become a politics of anarchy it seems to me.

        Still, though, hope against hope, justice, truth and reality are still possible in Washington.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          And from Anarchy rises The Strong Man Who Will Do What Has to Be Done to seize power.

          Like Napoleon cleaning up the results of the French Revolution with sword in one hand and mop in the other.

          • The [French] Revolution made Napoleon possible: that is its justification. For the sake of a similar prize one would have to desire the anarchical collapse of our entire civilization.

            —Friedrich Nietzsche, The Will to Power

    • As someone on another site I frequent pointed out, Clinton was impeached over lying to Congress about a (let’s see if I can get this past the nanny filter) jlowbob in the Oval Office and the definition of “is.” The things that Trump has been accused of–asking another country (several of them, apparently) for aid in winning an election, obstruction of justice (repeatedly), violations of the emoluments clause (many times) and a number of other “high crimes and misdemeanors”–are a little bit more serious. I don’t think they’re going to cause quite the same reaction for the party that brings the charges

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        Remember the Senate has the final 2/3 vote in the process, and the Senate has been acting towards Trump like the Roman Senate to Caesar.

        Even if an election were to give the Dems enough majority in the Senate to pull it off, that would just mean THEY railroaded it through (just like Birthers and Truthers). Second Amendment Solution with Twitter Trigger, anyone?

        • Exactly. The House can initiate it, and the House is majority Democrat. But getting Trump out of office was never going to work without overwhelming support–including political or constitutional necessity–from Republicans. Until Republicans get on board, along with Fox News, the Democrats are wasting everyone’s time and resources.

          If the Dems are successful, one of the worst consequences would be getting stuck with Pence for the next year and a half or, God forbid, four or eight years beyond that. At least Agnew had the decency to get caught in a tax scandal and resign.

          • thatotherjean says

            I’m not actually in favor of turning the information discovered by an impeachment inquiry over to the Senate before the election. What I do favor is public hearings, available every day on TV, radio, newspapers, and any other form of media you can think of. I want everybody, Republicans and Democrats alike, to know what has been discovered about Trump’s “high crimes and misdemeanors.” If, after being saturated with the facts of what Trump has been up to, voters still re-elect him, we deserve what we get–the dismantling of the Republic.

            • I think that is the best strategy available in this case. Maybe it’s what Nancy Pelosi has had in mind all along, just waiting for the opportune moment.

          • maybe the point of this ‘impeachment investigation’ is so that the House can use it to pressure the courts to speed up cooperation from Trump’s lawyers . . .

            I think once the House can get the needed documents, it will all go fairly quickly . . . they know what to look for, because they have a road map: part two of the Mueller report to help them with some of it

            holding Trump accountable for this latest stunt is, in itself, necessary . . . it really doesn’t matter whether he leaves office of not . . . or even if the Senate lets him off . . . . it will be on record what is discovered, and that will stand as a witness that some Americans did their duty in spite of all odds

  8. At the end of the comments Never Trumpers will be Never Trump and pro Trump will be pro Trump . 2020 election will be in hands of 2 to 5 % of voters who can be moved , undecided somehow, . This site no undecided , just explaining our positions Trump will win bigly , free health care illegals , kiss of death idea. Impeachment for fundraising like Reps vs Clinton.

  9. Adam Tauno Williams says

    It is amusing, especially after the last decade or so, all those very confidently calling out how this will blow the political winds one way or the other MORE THAN A YEAR before an election, with the alternative candidate unknown. Like, Hubris much?

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      Local morning drive-time is sure it’ll be a Dark Horse candidate who isn’t even mentioned or noticed in the chaos this far ahead.

  10. Klasie Kraalogies says

    Well, after reviewing this thread…

    I am happy to be Canadian. Our scandals are small fry by comparison.

    (Yes I am telling. No I am not sorry. ???)

  11. Klasie Kraalogies says

    The ??? are laughing faces…

  12. Headless Unicorn Guy says

    Response: Mr. Trump said the impeachment battle would be “a positive” for his chances of winning a second term next year.

    Because it will be so easy to spin as CONSPIRACY and PERSECUTION.

    Trump’s re-election strategy is to whip his Base to new heights of Fanaticism and ignore everyone else.

    And a good-sized chunk of this country is already down the Conspiracy Rabbit Hole too deep to pull out.

    • Impeachment is pointless, because as long as Trump has his base on his side, and Republican congresspeople know it, they won’t move against him, and the Senate won’t remove him from office, no matter what the outcome of the investigation. Trump will claim it’s all fake news, and crickets will sound from the Republican side of both Houses. But the same tendency is even more alarmingly true of the upcoming election. If Trump loses (I don’t think he will), even by a wide margin, he will claim that the election was fixed, that it was fraudulent, and he will refuse to leave office. And who will make him leave? The Congress? Not as long as the Senate is in the hands of Republicans. They will stick to him as their last hope, and they will betray whatever there is of democracy in our system of government without hesitation to protect their party and interests. The courts would likely become involved, but that of necessity would have to end up in the Supreme Court, and let’s face it, the Supreme Court is now almost an appendage of the Republican Party, I mean, the Trump party. Trump will stay in the Oval Office by hook or crook, and maybe beyond 2024.

    • Yep. His base is already ~85% conspiracy theory folks and persecution-complex folks, now he’ll be able to double-down with them.

      The good news for those of us who aren’t hopeful for a second term, though, might be: will those things garner him any new votes?

  13. When people talk about the “base” like it is some evil entity what is our democracy based on? Is it not trying to gat a base of citizens to vote for your policy and positions on the issues? I am part of Trump’s base because of where he stands on the issues. Issues that he is taking action on. The Democrat base is the Democrat base because of their agreement with Democrat leaders on the issues mostly their hatred of Trump and distain for his voters. Where is the base facts that 85 percent of trump voters are conspiracy theory folks unless you think that the facts revealed are not worthy of consideration.

    • Sure, I threw a number like 85% with no basis of fact, but just upon a judgment I made with the people I know, some close friends who support Trump. They tend to agree that anything Trump says is “fake news” is indeed “fake news” and anything he says is “the truth” is “the truth.” And most of these people are constantly telling me I should believe in things much more bizarre than the potential conspiracy that the Dems “have had it in for Trump since Day One.”

      I have an utter disdain for Trump, and trust me…it’s not because of any Democratic rhetoric.

      • Rick Ro. So your 85% is fake news. At least you admit it. When did the FBI investigation of Trump start dealing with the Russian collusion theory? It was before Day 1. Is that not a real fact? When did Comey tell President Trump about the unverified Steele Dossier and that he was not being investigated and then the Dossier was used as the base for the FISA Court approval? What happened to the Russian Conspiracy claims made for 2 years? Mueller did his best to find something even went beyond his prevue but no Russian collusion, so Rick, who is the conspiracy party? Trump will win bigly. So if not the Democratic rhetoric why your great distain? Are you for no immigration law enforcement, not dealing with Communist China threat, not getting rid of terrible trade agreements, a poor national defense and endless foreign wars and a poor economy or does Trump not meet your standard of conduct as defined by the establishment?

        Biden should have stayed out of the race, his son would have gotten away with it for sure. How corrupt is the establishment and by that I mean the Republicans, Democrats, the lobbyist, big business and the main stream press. They are all in it together. Biden ego got his son into the spotlight but he will escape the consequences as the system will protect him as they close ranks. Trump is the bull in the establishment China shop and they are out to get him and quell the challenge to their good life . Paul Ryan moving back to D.C to rake in millions along with Tom Daschel and all the insiders. And Trump is the crazy one?

        • How corrupt is the establishment and by that I mean the Republicans, Democrats, the lobbyist, big business and the main stream press.

          Well, at least you left out “the Jews” …

        • –> “…or does Trump not meet your standard of conduct as defined by the establishment?”

          Establishment be damned. He doesn’t meet my standard of conduct AS LAID OUT BY SCRIPTURES…LOL. For the life of me, I can’t see how any Christian can line up beside the man.

          • Rick Ro so your standard of conduct is your standard and you have the right to not vote or oppose Trump but it is your standard , other citizens may not agree with your standards, I think we went though this with the Moral Majority and Clinton impeachment. You are certainly entitled to vote for what candidate you find suitable and I am sure the current Democrat front runners meet the moral standards of many and many find Trump more moral in policy not personality. God Bless America

            • You must not read many of my other comments. I in no way have suggested any of the current Dems measure up to any sort of scriptural measurement of leadership, either. But to think Trump DOES measure up falls in the category of selective scripture reading and interpretation.

        • –> “Rick Ro. So your 85% is fake news.”

          Hey, if I had the name of Donald Trump and had tweeted it, you would’ve believed it.

          😉

          • Rick Ro. Of course I would , coming from a man who should win many Nobel Prizes, who has a brilliant mind and is a genius. As the Pharaoh aka Trump to us, use to say Let it Be Written , Let it be done. Trump said all these things so they must be true. Trump would not lie, embellish or not be humble. Trump is the role model we should all aspire to in our personal life.

            Trump is only right 99 percent of the time, I just made that up and even I laughed. We disagree but God still loves us.

        • whip per will says

          your both wrong. antisemitism doesnt real.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW3a1bw5XlE

          • I bet you’re a Holocaust denier. You smell like Alt-Right.

            • whip per will says

              Wrong again. Yet another false accusation.

              Even so, I bet you’d throw me in jail if you had the power.

              Moralistic, gnat-strainers always cast themselves as the heroes of their own small stories, though they are the petty villains of everyone else’s reality.

              • You said, “your both wrong. antisemitism doesnt real.”

                If you are claiming that antisemitism isn’t real, you are antisemitic, and a racist. Is that what you’re claiming?

                FYI, I have no interest in running jails, or putting people in them, for crackpot, hateful ideas. But I bet you’d put me in a concentration camp in a minute if your fascist brethren came to power.

                Antisemitism is real, and happens in the modern world. The Holocaust was was an intentional and systematic attempt by Nazi Germany to commit genocide against the Jewish people. Anybody who denies that is either a white supremacist/neo-Nazi, or their dupe.

                • whip per will says

                  If you can’t bring yourself to admit that the pejorative term “antisemite” is at least SOMETIMES a will-to-power used as a cudgel against people (who themselves have no actual hatred toward Semitic peoples), I don’t know what to tell you. You’re too full of thought-terminating cliches to be reasoned with.

                  Sure, you theoretically have moral issues with jails-in-the-abstract, but when push comes to shove you’d have no problem tattling to the proper authorities on someone like me. Whether or not I’m ACTUALLY a white-supremacist or Holocaust-denier is beside the point. You just like telling other people they’ve been naughty and you want people to get their just desserts. Trouble is, you wouldn’t know justice if it was hanging in front of you on a cross.

                  You’re a preening, nit-picking bugman. And you can’t stand to lose an argument because you are a bully. Which is why you’ve resorted to calling me names rather than respond intelligently to the substance of anything I’ve said. So in that spirit, I’ve given you a dose of your own medicine–though my accusations aren’t false.

                  • It sure sounds like you don’t believe antisemitism is a real phenomenon. You seem as loathe to say it is as legend has it the possessed are to crucifixes and holy water.

                    • whip per will says

                      In my experience, by far the most antisemitic people tend to be themselves Semitic and yet reserve their most vile hatred for people who happen to be the wrong kind of Semite. Are you asking whether or not I believe there is hatred in the world? Of course there is.

                      You’re not, despite what you may believe, on the right side of history. To paraphrase someone, who to you is likely “j-just another antisemite” (and so must be silenced and marginalized), the line between the right and wrong sides of history runs through every human heart.

                      In other words, the world is not so simply divided into racists and nonracists. We are ALL racist. And I’ve found that the most racist people tend to be those who identify themselves as anti-racists, allies for POCs, etc. I wouldn’t at all be surprised to learn that you are every bit as racist as you claim I am.

                    • whip per will says

                      But your simile brings another important point to light.

                      For you, the cross and holy water have been replaced by progressive shibboleths. I didn’t say you aren’t a Christian as a way of scoring points or whatever. I said it because you actually are not one. To you, brandishing the word “ANTISEMITE” is more powerful than the image of the crucified God.

                    • All this is to no avail. We do not like each other, but more importantly, we think evil of each other. That’s where it is, and will remain.

                    • whip per will says

                      Actually, you’d like me if we met in person.

                      The difference between us is, again, that I believe that Solzhenitsyn is right: “the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either — but right through every human heart — and through all human hearts.”

                      You simplify the world into good/evil, black/white, racist/nonracist. If anything, you’re Manichean. I also wasn’t trying to score points when I said I’d pray for you to become Christian. I mean that genuinely. Please continue to pray I’ll become a decent human being.

                    • You’re wrong. I recognize moral ambivalence in the world and in myself. I do have a Manichean streak, that’s something I’ve recognized and have worked against in myself for a long time. My movement toward social and political progressivism has actually been the result of making a conscious choice not to see the world in terms of black and white; but that doesn’t end in a place of equivalence among all moral positions. I believe in the reality of evil, and in the existence of demonic and angelic beings; and I believe that racism is a sin of the highest order, promoted by satanic influence, splitting God’s world and the church into warring factions, splitting the body of Christ.

                      I will pray for you.

          • Antisemitism and white supremacy, together again,,,and again…and again….

    • What makes you think that Democrats are united “mostly by hatred for Trump”? It’s been my experience, in general, that people on the left are much more willing to engage in dialogue with people on the right, and to try to understand them, than vice versa.

      I’m personally somewhat middle-of-the-road – I hold some opinions that are very conservative, and others that are very liberal, and many that are in between – and I can say that I’ve experienced much more hatred and vitriol from conservatives who think I’m too liberal than from liberals who think I’m too conservative.

      Another good piece of evidence that extreme hatred of the “other” is more the province of conservatives than of liberals is that in the US, far right extremists are responsible for more deaths than any other kind of terrorist – whereas far-left extremist attacks have been almost unheard of in the last 30 years.

      • Michael Z. We can all just go by personal experiences and encounters. I am a conservative, live in a conservative state and mostly interact with like minded people. Actually have seen little hate toward liberals who disagree with conservatives. I am not sure where the far right extremist tag is applied and who decides if it is a far right terror act? I know McVey is cited and he was a crazy right nut but basically lone wolf with not network. So tell me were you get the far right wing terror info. The main active terror activity I see nationally is Antifa, or is there an extreme right wing equivalent to that organization that pops up at almost every major event? Do you fear an attack from a far right terrorist group in public places or from nut jobs from all aspects of life? I fear the irrational nut jobs. Of course , the SPLC would classify me as a far right terrorist group if I had any recognition.
        I experience no hate from liberals, far left or those who do not agree with me but I do experience a reluctance to have a reasonable , constructive conversation trying to understand each other. We all have different life experiences that is why facts are important. Facts can help form opinions but certainly life experience is important.

    • I guess those hate chants from the ‘base’ give the wrong impression, Dan ?????????????

    • ‘The Democrat base is the Democrat base because of their agreement with Democrat leaders on the issues mostly their hatred of Trump and distain for his voters.’

      People are not just Democrats due to this. Democrats existed pre-Trump, will exist long after his Presidency is consigned to history. The idea of defining everything as only existing in relation to Trump is bizarre, he is not that important. He’s not even a real Republican, I think.

  14. And then we have the spectacle of the president’s personal lawyer, who is completely immersed in the matter in question today, talking and acting like a mobster. He’s utterly reprehensible, a Renfield to Trump’s Dracula.

    • thatotherjean says

      If the Trump administration had any sense, they’d get Rudy off TV, STAT. He really lost it today, not just sounding like a mobster, but like a deranged old man. Fortunately for Democrats, they don’t.

    • Klasie Kraalogies says

      Dan if you think quoting Breitbart means anything, carries any weight, is a valid step, then, well, ….. oh why bother.

      Another scotch, barman, and make it a double.

      • I was going to say the same thing, but in his defense it is a Rand Paul article, not a Breitbart article. And Rand Paul does make some valid points.

      • Klasie, do you mean the points, the facts, the opinion arrived at by Paul are invalid because the are in Breitbart? I can find no main stream outlet that gave him any coverage. I look at Huff Po, Vox and try to be as inclusive as time allows as I do not want to in an echo chamber of those who agree with me. How about the points that Paul brought out? If it was in the New York Times would you give it instant creditability? I thought you guys were the open minded , free speech , research guys. Rand incorrect on what opinions?

        • Klasie Kraalogies says

          See response below.

          Maybe I was over hasty. I’m tired. But quoting Breitbart is like wanting to read an article in the newsletters of the Waffen SS. Whatever.

          For the record, most US media is substandard. With the exception of occasional well researched, investigative journalism. It is because it relies on advertising, and therefore leans heavily toward sensationalism. I am not a fan of HuffPo and NYT either, although they are not as far gone as say Fox, Breitbart or Mother Jones.

      • Klasie Kraalogies says

        Awww, you are so cute.

      • “Another scotch, barman, and make it a double.”

        Done.

  15. Klasie Kraalogies says

    Hmmm…. I am not so sure. To hate a racist, mysogenist (p.. grabber, his own words, remember) who is unrepentant is not a vice, in my opinion. Are they completely virtuous? Of course not. In politics, we vote for the least bad one…

    Also, when it comes to visceral hatred – did Ron Paul actually live through the period Jan 2008 to Jan 2017? Casting of stones etc etc

  16. Klasie, I am slow , I am not following your 9.17 comments. Are you referring to Rand Paul. He is certainly not a Trumper at heart., he is a on board with Trump non intervention slant but he is not a Trump loyalist. What are you not sure of , thanks for clarifying. I am sure it is me being thick headed

    • Klasie Kraalogies says

      It was in response to Rick.

      I still don’t agree with RP.. He is not a Trumper, but not exactly an anti-Trump either.

      • Klasie, Thanks, No Rand Paul is the loose cannon on libertarian ship deck , that can go left , right or off the ship I was surprised when he won re election . At least he does march to his own drummer but the drummer makes up the sheet music as he marches. In todays age it is hard just to get the straight news, everyone has an agenda , an opinion and a 24/7 news cycle to fill. Plus the commercialization aspect of cable and internet. I guess it was always so and I was unaware. .

        • Klasie Kraalogies says

          Indeed.

          I take Reuters and Associated Press as the most reliable news sources. And The Atlantic for interesting, nuanced opinions, even though I often disagree with them.

        • Klasie Kraalogies says

          But I am still having my whiskey, mind you. Cheers! 🙂

  17. Klasie Kraalogies says

    In the end my dear American friends, good or bad idea, it seems like an attempt is going to be made. Your best course is to support and protect your democratic institutions. And tell you congressmen and women, and your senators, that you expect them to decide based on evidence, not loyalty or hatred. I’m pretty sure that won’t happen, but nevertheless, that is the world you should strive for.

    All the best. It is going to a rough times ahead.

  18. Thanks, I’m glad you guys sorted this our for the rest of us. I feel much better now. Good night.

  19. Patrick Kyle says

    You guys need to give it up… Trump will be in office at least another 4 years, maybe even 8. Impeachment will accomplish nothing because the Senate will not strip him of the office. It will only inflame the base and prove to fence sitters that the supposed crimes were a nothing burger. All that Trump needs for a landslide is for that clown car full of crazies running for the Democratic nomination to keep talking.

    • Klasie Kraalogies says

      Hate to point this out, me being of the foreign persuasion and whatnot, but Trump’s first term expires in January 2021. The next presidential term will expire in January 2025. So 5 years and a bit more than 3 months is the longest he can stay in office…

      • The longest he can legally and constitutionally stay in office, Klasie. But this president has no respect for the law or constitution, or democracy, and his Senatorial enablers, and base, will back him on any ploy he uses to hold onto power (Fraudulent votes! Rigged election! National emergency!). The United States is about to drive over the cliff, Klasie.

      • You’re going to want to keep a good stock of that whiskey, because it won’t be fun for any onlookers who are fond of the US, or admire its best ideals.

    • I disagree strongly with your first point and I must agree with Klasie, another 4 years is all he can wangle.

      I do however agree with your second point, that if the Democratic Party doesn’t quit its petty ideological in-fighting in trying to promote candidates from the radical left, they are doomed.

      Joe Biden is the only front man who they can realistically sell to Mom-and Pop America.

  20. As noted above at the beginning of this comment Section. The Never Trumpers are still the Never Trumpers, The Pro Trump are still the Pro Trump, No one has been moved in their opinion it appears. The battle of the election will be that small percent who can be moved in each state. However, I have enjoyed the various comments and appreciate the courteous replies and comments give. I consider the comments to be fun and the give and take to be what we should have , a reasonable discussion. I have followed this site enough to know that when Trump is involved there will be many comments as Trump is the lightening rod of attention and opinion. So thanks to the moderator for broaching the subject and to all the commenters. To me it was fun. Just in closing Trump will win bigly if the economy holds up.

  21. senecagriggs says

    Final say on who wins 2020 will be, of course, God.

    Job 42
    42 Then Job replied to the Lord:

    2 “I know that you can do all things;
    NO purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
    Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me to know.

    Of course God’s criteria is different than ours. Sometimes good kings/leaders are set in place – a blessing of God. Sometimes he brings about the leadership of BAD king/leaders and uses them to punish the people.

    His will is often oblique to His children.

    But, “Thy will be done.”

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy says

    Richard Nixon resigned in 1974 to avoid being impeached.

    I cannot see Trump taking that route.
    From the time he first hit the news in the Eighties, he has always been very bull-headed; In-Your-Face and Brass It Out in a head-to-head game of Chicken. This guy will NOT back down for anything.

    A snippet of dialog from the original Alien Nation movie:

    BAD GUY: “Drive straight at him. He’ll turn.”
    (in other, cop car)
    SAM: “SYKES! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?”
    SYKES: “THIS IS CHICKEN! I NEVER LOSE AT CHICKEN!”
    (Head-on crash)

  23. Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong with this group. Sorry, just calling it like I see it. Btw, I no longer vote and consider myself apolitical. The only decent person to serve as US President in my lifetime is Jimmy Carter (I’m in my late 50’s).

    • Might I add – America will not be change by any political party. America will only be changed as individuals are changed by the Holy Spirit of God through salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

  24. The liberal agenda is anti-Christian with its emphasis on abortion. The right wing agenda is anti-Christian with its reliance on military conflict (war and killing), lack of concern for the refugee (alien and stranger) and for the poor. Just saying this so you will understand that I have absolutely no political party affiliation.

    I am one of the long time Boars Head tavern members (not that carries any weight at all on this board or in this world for that matter).