September 29, 2020

Open Mic Nov. 2016: The Day After Edition


Open Mic Nov. 2016: The Day After Edition

I figured that, because of the election yesterday, readers would be distracted and not pay much attention to most anything I might put up today.

So, let’s have our November Open Mic.

By the time you read these words, it will probably be clear who the next president of the U.S. will be. So, something tells me you might want to talk about that.

But “open” means open, and so whatever you would like to discuss is welcome today.

My one request: please don’t turn this into a contentious social media-type thread today.

Internet Monk FAQ/RULES apply. The golden rule always applies. And as always, I reserve the right to actively moderate the discussion.

Gather ’round, and let’s talk.


  1. Is He in charge?

    I don’t know anymore.

    May God have mercy on us.

  2. Charles Howard Featherstone says

    This will only hasted the collapse. Trump will not and cannot preserve the order he claims to fight for.

  3. If he wins – darkest day in American politics. Eighth grade bully mentality has prevailed amongst me and my neighbors. Dear world at large – our apologies. Let’s hope we can all come out the other side and that our form of government can maintain some checks and balances. Embarrassing. Unfathomable. Disturbing. Now that he is there he is going to have to make stuff up because he doesn’t have the foggiest clue. He has never, ever, laid out an in depth, cogent policy on any subject. Everything is a phrase or two and a bunch of greats and tremendous awesomes. Those are our new policies. Financial disclosures never came. I guess we all jump on board. We are greater and more tremendous and know more than anyone including the generals. Lead on Don! Your sheep await!

  4. David Cornwell says

    The US is no longer a beacon to the world. The light went out tonight. I’ll qualify this however, because I feel our light has been dimmed for sometime now.

    On so many levels this makes me afraid. Trump will be an example to our young children and youth. He publically has done so many things that make me ashamed. His treatment and attitude toward women, people with disabilities, veterans, aliens and all the others he has given us permission to mistreat, vilify, and abuse.

    What good can come out of this? We don’t know, but sometimes God begins a new thing in the midst of chaos. If nothing else it should shake Christians to their core and cause examination in our churches.

    • But David, many American Christians will be celebrating this! It won’t shake them to their core…they are happy and proud! Some may come to experience buyers remorse down the road, but will they have the courage to admit it, or will they remain in denial as their President undermines everything decent in America? I’m not hopeful that many of them will repent….

      • Adam Tauno Williams says

        > as their President undermines everything decent in America?

        The President does not have the authority to do that.

        • You’re right, what I said is not accurate. The President doesn’t have the authority to undermine everything decent ; but he will have the power to do many things that he doesn’t have the authority to do, and many things in secret. This one will do it.

          And you don’t have to imagine a President advancing racist, paranoid conspiracy theories like Birtherism, because we will have one in office shortly.

      • Andrew Zook says

        Yep… unless some really, really bad things happen, most of them will rejoice in this and not only that, want to participate in it.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Now comes the overturn of Roe v Wade! Now prayer will return to schools! Now we have a CHRISTIAN nation again! Unicorns farting CHRISTIAN rainbows! Free Ice Cream for the Faithful!

          • No. That would have happened had Ted Cruz been elected. I expect some lip service to Christians and the Donald will go on his merry way to do whatever he wants, whatever that is. My guess is that now he’s like the dog who just caught the car – what do I do with it?

            • David Cornwell says

              I know a dog like that. She got run over.

            • Ronald Avra says

              I agree. He hasn’t given actual consideration to governing. If you like improv, you are about to be feted.

              • Headless Unicorn Guy says

                Like the last scene from that older Robert Redford movie The Candidate, when after finally getting the Senate seat looks to his campaign manager and asks “What do I do now?”

                I remember Obama took a long time floundering around after 2008; in his case, he’d been on the fast track using one office as a platform to campaign for the next higher one that he ended up entering the White House with very little actual governing experience — a tree-shaker who now had to sit down and start making jelly.

    • Danielle DuBois says

      Besides the potential impact on foreign policy, this is what bothers me the most: Apparently my young son is swimming in an environment in which you can malign civil rights, assault women, propose the targeted killing of innocents, and bully anyone you can pick out at will …. and not only make this known but make a circus of it … and you will still get close to 50 percent of the vote.

      I don’t know what to say. I thought we were better than this. I really thought at least some of the items on this list were out-of-bounds.

    • Any good coming out of the upcoming administration is probably the result of who he surrounds himself with.

      • Agreed. One hopes (and prays) he finds excellent folks to form his cabinet and as advisors…and that they are agreeable to be with him

        • The people who were voting for Trump as the anti-Establishment candidate are in for a rude awakening. Trump has absolutely no idea of how to get things done in Washington. Therefore, the Republican elites will still be extremely influential, if only to save Trump’s a$$ when he completely screws up.


          • I don’t think they even will. I believe they’ll hang him out to dry, given half a chance, and let Pence run the show. Heck, I’m hoping they do!

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Problem is, both The Trump and The Hill strike me as the type of pointy-haired boss who can only tolerate the presence of Yes-Men around The Great One. Like so many Lead Pastors and their Boards of Elders.

          • Amen, brother hug, . All presidents need an honest broker, we must pray that Trump will listen and choose the right people ( good, kind, working for nations good). Our prayers are vital. I also wish we would stop talking about the candidates as vile and evil. Unbelievable. May we speak the truth in love.

            • You appear to be under the severe misapprehension that love means never saying anything negative about anything. Speaking the truth in love means calling Evil what it is. To do otherwise is lying and alignment with hate.

              • Headless Unicorn Guy says

                Remember the classic difference between true and false prophets:
                The false prophet tells the King what the King wants to hear.
                The true prophet tells the King what the King needs to hear.

        • That Other Jean says

          His past and current associates don’t leave me with much hope for the quality of his advisors as President. He only listens to people who agree with him, and he doesn’t retain information well. I think we’re in deep trouble.

      • Which leaves open the very interesting question of who Trump will appoint.

  5. Took my wife and teenaged daughter to a church wife had visited. Wife likes it. Lots of young families etc.

    Now, I’m not wanting to go back. These people elected Trump. I don’t know if I have much in common with them. Do we worship the same God?

    • In charity, we have to say “yes”. We all have our profound misunderstandings of God. And Jesus had both a tax collector and a Zealot amongst the Apostles.

    • Adam Tauno Williams says

      > Do we worship the same God?

      No, possibly not, not in any sense that matters.

      And even if you do, in some theoretical sense… do you want to give them your money?

      • Patrick Kyle says

        Ahh… finally the truth comes out. A vote for Trump means you aren’t a Christian. But if the shoe was on the other foot and Clinton was elected, you would call anyone who said her supporters aren’t Christians bigoted fanatics.
        You people don’t get it. The American people have rejected the progressive/liberal/globalist agenda. We are sick and tired of your BS political correctness, thought/speech police tactics and destructive policies, both domestic and foreign. Both the house and the Senate remain in Republican hands. Trump won decisively. We call that a mandate. The country is changing direction. Period. We are done with a lying and crooked media that did everything they could to get Hillary elected. They are liars. The margins by which Trump and the GOP won mean either the whole MSM/Pollsters were absolutely clueless.. or they were lying to influence the election. Either way they have lost whatever shreds of credibility that remained. It’s a new world…and I feel fine.

        • Patrick, you might want to include the Republicans in a desire for a “globalist agenda.” Lots of that during Reagan, Bush 41 & Bush 43. And with Trump, I don’t think the voters have rejected a globalist agenda.

        • The American people have rejected…? As of the most recent tallies, Hillary Clinton has more popular votes than Donald Trump, though she lost in the Electoral votes. That means that less than half of the American people are on the same page with you, Patrick Kyle; stop pretending you are speaking for THE American people, or that the ones you agree with are the only American people.

          • Make that less than half of the people who voted.

            And voting numbers were down this year.

            • Both Trump and Clinton received less than half of the total votes when one factors in the other six million voters who didn’t vote Dem or Repub. Not exactly vote totals that either side should be crowing about.

        • Btw, PK, we are American people too, and we’re not going anywhere

        • PK, speak for yourself, not others.

    • Don’t be so sure about that. Large swaths of religious conservatives, including Evangelicals, did not vote for Trump. Some polls (for what they’re worth, apparently) showed that the self-identified Evangelicals most likely to vote Trump are the ones who do not regularly attend church.

      In my own congregation, we have an eclectic mixture of Trump voters, Hillary voters, and third-party voters. This is much more common in my theologically conservative denomination than many want to admit.

      Just saying, don’t assume too much. Get to know the people. There are probably some crazy Trump supporters there. They don’t bite. Some of them will make excellent friends for you. Others will file under “can’t fix stupid,” but there are those kinds in every cause and in every congregation.

      • Good point, Miguel. I run our church’s coffee shop twice a week and I hear from rabid Trump supporters and die-hard Clinton fans. Most of my evangelical friends were not huge Trump supporters, even those that voted for him.

      • CT story today says about 80/% of white evangelicals voted for trump. A poll they had up a few days ago showed about two thirds of white evangelicals in favor of trump. The numbers for black evangelicals were almost exactly reversed. So, if you’re going to a predominantly white evangelical church, it’s probable the majority voted for Trump.

        Which for me raises a ton of questions about the shape of what they actually believe and act on. More than I could begin to go into here.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Everybody figured there was going to be a race angle to Trump’s appeal.

          White Evangelicals and non-White Evangelicals are two distinct cultures with two distinct histories coming from two distinct economic levels. And two different sets of shticks.

        • I don’t understand why white evangelicals couldn’t leave the presidential ballot blank if they couldn’t vote for either. Why is that so complicated? Or write in Mitt Romney, like one creative soul in Dixville Notch?

        • “Self identified Evangelicals” vs. “Weekly church attending Evangelicals.” Surveys seemed clear that the former was vastly more likely to vote Trump, while the latter tended to have much stronger reservations, despite support for much of his platform.

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        There are probably some crazy Trump supporters there.

        Is it just me, or has the proportion of crazies of any and all sorts been increasing since the Sixties?

  6. All hail the new Bully-in-Chief. I’m ashamed to be an American. God save the rest of the world from the evil, and petty revenge, this man will certainly exercise.

    • Yup. Future looks bleak. Winter is coming.

      Please, Trumpists, prove me wrong.

      • They don’t want to prove you wrong. The real Trumpists (as opposed to all the suckers) embrace the evil, the anarchy, the pettiness, the vileness, the revenge. Pleading with them will do no good. They want blood.

        As for the suckers, those who thought that in choosing Trump they were choosing the lesser of two evils: they will soon enough have buyers remorse, but it will be too late…too late.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says


          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            Plus specifically for Christians (i.e. Bob the Culture Warriors):

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Pleading with them will do no good. They want blood.

          As would anyone who found themselves on the bottom for a long stretch (being sneered at by Their Betters) and now find themselves on top calling the shots. Like black troops garrisoning the Reconstruction South, like Unpronounceable Activists, they will now have the urge to throw their new weight around. Hard. And be Righteous about it.

    • I don’t get all the doom and gloom folks. I did not like either candidate, but one thing I could bank on is that both candidates are old – in four years we will be picking new again. We continue to have a Republican house and Senate. The last time this occurred the Republicans got nothing done – so for those of you who identify as democrat all is not lost.

      What is interesting was what happened in the battle ground states. White, middle-class women voted for Trump. From my perspective this was a movement against the established parties more than it was an endorsement for Trump. Hillary had more than enough ammunition to take Trump down and instead we got shell shock (I was watching NBC at the time and that is how I would describe the reporters and pundits – disbelief).

      Trump is President. The sun will come up tomorrow. There will still be conflict in the middle east. Putin will still consider us the “evil empire”. Evangelicals as all other Christian flavors will continue to lose ground to secularization and the individualization of faith (I don’t need no religion – just me and God). The economy will continue to go through its cycles and America, the big man on the hill will continued to be hated and envied by those who wish to unseat us. If Obama could not change that image, then Trump’s expected damage should be limited.

  7. tomhel1616 says

    As a traditional baptist I was very troubled by one of the candidates promise to give the church power. I even read an article where the writer said he may be the next Constantine. I’m referring of course to the winner. i much prefer someone who holds the church in contempt than someone who promises power.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      As a traditional baptist I was very troubled by one of the candidates promise to give the church power.

      And all those PASTORS smacking their lips and drooling at the promise of POWER…

  8. Oh, I don’t know. Everyone seems a little overly dramatic here.

    I will say this: Trump’s election shows just how flawed a candidate Clinton was.

    • Let’s agree to disagree, Rick. People of color, immigrants, Muslims, those of us who get insurance via the Affordable Care Act, those of us who receive Social Security (in my case, a slender disability stipend plus Medicare) are up the proverbial creek without a paddle, especially with an R majority in both houses of Congress.

      I think you are far too sanguine; thismis absolutely nothing like business as usual.

      • Klasie Kraalogies says

        Not to forget freedom of the press, the environment, and democratic governments bordering Russia.

      • Thanks for the pushback, numo. My apologies. I didn’t mean to discount the real fear and anxiety felt by you and many here at iMonk.

        It’s as I just told my daughter: with Trump as President, it’ll be more important for we followers of Christ to be supportive of the people who may need help over the next 4 years: Muslims, LGBTQ, minorities, etc.

      • If you are one of the people AFA is legit helping, it makes sense to feel fearful.

        However, not that I’d ask you to place much faith in the guy when I don’t either, if AFA gets repealed, that isn’t a guarantee that something that will also work takes its place. Ideally many want to see something that works better., but in the utilitarian game that is politics, the “most good for the most people” is a gamble many can’t afford to lose.

        But some blacks, Muslims, and immigrants voted Trump. They are not all afraid of him.

        • M7guel, “they” says more than you intended, imo.

          • …seriously? SMH it’s almost like I can’t say anything correctly enough. It says I am neither black, Muslim, or an immigrant. That. Is. All. For the love of Buddha. You wanna gripe about me being difficult to talk to?

  9. I no longer recognize my own country, and I have no desire to stay here, unless the soon to be Dictator in Chief can be mercifully denied the office to which he was elected.

    I do not think we will have a functtioning democratic republic for much longer.

    Equally, I’m sick over my state handing the presidency to That Man on a plate.

    • The democratic experiment in this country is over; its destroyer will soon demolish it from inside its offices of power.

      I feel grief. I feel ashamed. I’m actually crying – – no doubt the Trumpsters would take that as a sign of my liberal weakness….to which I say: F them!

      • Adam Tauno Williams says

        > The democratic experiment in this country is over

        Overstatement; our institutions are not that fragile. And this was close to a ~1% win; which means it was determined by turn-out. Both parties are badly damaged, there is no “mandate”.

        > I feel grief. I feel ashamed.

        It is disgusting. I had some very nice bourbon, then some very nice whiskey, followed by a couple good beers… Now, onwards.

        Four years is not that long. In four years rural districts will have even fewer voters than today – the decline is a long established pattern. America will be less white – a numeric inevitability. Four years will reap ~10 millions Boomers from the earth – also inevitable. Perhaps, just maybe, non-white Americans will even feel inclined to vote next time thanks to The Donald [although, that is clearly not inevitable].

        I can work with this.

        The Donald has recently stated a couple of times that we wants to privatize roads – – – a great idea if done correctly – – – the interstates should have all been toll roads on Day#1. So there is at least one policy I can support.

        Trivial selfish upside – my Leftists friends who have been poo-poo-ing me and patting my head when I assert that they are disconnected and underestimate how dangerous rural voters are – I get a very robust I-told-you-so.

        Practical upside: John Mica (R-FL) is gone! Arch-nemesis. I might send Ms. Murphy flowers. Kept some good state people here [MI]. The presidency is not everything.

        • Forgive me for my overstatements; I’m feeling very emotional.

          But I’m just not as sanguine as you.

        • Burro [Mule] says

          I agree with you, Finn, with the caveat that the 30% of the Latino vote that came out for Trump does not automatically guarantee a Democratic/hipster future as Hispanic becomes the new White.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            And what is a “Hispanic”? In my area, it means “Mexican” (which in actual usage includes Central American), but the actual definition is anyone whose first language was Spanish or whose ancestry came from any Spanish-speaking region.

            And there are two attitudes among them — “Old Country” and “New Country”, with a lot of the loudest throats being Old Country. I have to keep asking “Mexicano o Californio? Mexicano o Tejano?”

        • But, Adam, who will stop Trump if he decides to not abide by our institutions? The GOP, who have been stunningly unable or unwilling to buck him this election cycle, control both houses of Congress. If he goes rogue, what can or will they do? They’ve shown little interest in doing anything.

          If our institutions were strong, we would not be where we are.
          I am glad you have high hopes. I do not.

          • Adam Tauno Williams says

            > I am glad you have high hopes. I do not.

            I do not have high hopes; just that confidence this is survivable, and some inching progress can be made in spite of everything – – – just as we’ve make inching progress in many areas during the last decade.

            > They’ve shown little interest in doing anything.

            Ok, and very little happens, at the Federal level. That can be read as a sign of institution strength. People can grind the gears, so no matter how the driver mashes on the accelerator the car only limps along. This is the virtuous power of bureaucracy. Court cases can easily tie up things for nearly a full presidential term. Policy addendum, requirements, and challenges can slow nearly anything to a crawl – people always underestimate what even a lowly drain commissioner in some rural nowhere can do to jam a billion dollar project .. The system has many levers – Americans seem to be in desperate need of an in-depth civics refresher course – almost nobody appears to know how their own system works.

            In some ways I am OK with federal gridlock – it forces devolution, communities go off on their own and find their own solutions. Which is good from a fiscal anti-fragility stand point.

            • It’s not congressional gridlock I fear. It’s Trump simply deciding he can do whatever–mass deportations, taking away voting rights for whatever perceived slight, locking up people without due process because they bother him, etc–and who will stop him? If he doesn’t abide by the rules, will the GOP leadership in Congress say he must do so? At this point, I sincerely doubt they would. So, for example, if the first thing he does as president is to order law enforcement of some sort to arrest Hillary Clinton and lock her up without charges, who will tell him he can’t? What law enforcement official will say, “No, sir. I won’t!”, especially if there are plenty waiting in the wings willing to follow the president’s orders.
              Mob rule is an ugly, ugly thing and I fear that Trump is unable or unwilling to control what he has unleashed.

              • Suzanne. – exactly. I think business as usual is no more.

              • That is what I fear also. There is either little will or no ability to stop Trump, and he waltzed into office with seemingly no effort. He’s got majority in the House and Senate…he’ll appoint judges…I cannot imagine what he will be free to do. Mainly, I don’t want to imagine it.

                I have some school-days friends on social media who are rejoicing in this result. I’m sorry but I cannot interpret this in any way as “God’s favor” or so forth. I fear some are seriously deluded, and I pray the scales fall from their eyes.

                I’m heartened by posts of friends who are declaring their homes as safe spaces, and that they will stand with the groups mostly at risk for bullying, deportation, marginalization or outright abuse. We have to do that. We each have to be the best us, and hope and pray for a better country. This surely isn’t it.

                • “I’m heartened by posts of friends who are declaring their homes as safe spaces,…”

                  I don’t think the importance of this can be under-estimated.

            • Adam, you’re younger than a lot of us who post here. A lot of us may not survive long enough to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

              Because that’s how life is, and that’s just how truly anxious I am about the survival of the best aspects of our country.

              • Fortunately things do not change that dramatically on the election of a President. For me, if Hillary had gotten in I would have been sad, but there was also hope – she is a hawk, she would only be around for four years etc. For Trump, there are a lot of us on the Republican side who haven’t figured out what he is yet. He is not an ultra-conservative. He does not have huge moralistic leanings. I think Trump will do what Trump will do independent of party theology. And Republican’s will not go blindly by and give him a blank check.

                In some ways he’s like a Perot, so it will be interesting to see what is going to happen.

                Numo – as for health care – that is already something that is tanking and needs to be fixed. Both candidates knew that. My healthcare costs went up enormously… I am now looking to fund through HSA’s and know that most costs will come out of my pocket until I get that funded . That includes prescriptions too. And that is happening independent of who is in the White House.

                • “And Republican’s will not go blindly by and give him a blank check.” But Radagast, they pretty much did in the election. A few said they didn’t like him, but when push came to shove, they fell in line with him. And they will continue to do so. Why would you think they would change?

                  • Suzanne – you are right!

                    But many did not make that decision until they were in the polling booth. For some it was a moralistic decision – he could name a number of Justice appointments to the Supreme Court over the next few years…. but it is a gamble – because we don’t truly know where his heart lies. But they did know where Hillary’s focus is. They know he has huge character flaws, but they also lived through the huge character flaws of Bill Clinton. They understand he has said some whacky things about walls… but some believe this was all over exaggeration on his part.

                    For me it will be interesting how he works with Congress, remember – a lot of Republican politicians rejected him.

                    Think about this – Hillary had the experience, she had the name recognition, she had an opponent that shot himself in the foot, was unfiltered, did not look good to women, minorities, and generally parents of small children,… and yet he won. The conservative dems supported him. Middle class women supported him. African Americans did not come out in numbers to vote. You can’t chalk all of that up to a dumb public….

                    • But Rad, we do actually know where Trump’s heart lies. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. In everything he has said unguardedly, it is extremely apparent that Donald Trump cares only about Donald Trump and what will make HIM “great”.

                      Two of my three adult, employed children will likely be without health insurance; they will not be able to afford it at all if ACA is repealed. (The third has it because she’s in the military. And though she is not likely to be in any combat zones because of her MOS, it is still a possibility. Very few people in DC have children in the military, and that’s an issue for me; thankfully, some veterans have been elected, and maybe that will be a tempering factor.) I’ll be applying for Social Security in a very few years; will I be able to receive the benefit I paid for my entire working life? The majority of the time, I paid the whole 15% as a self-employed person. Privatization will be the quickest way to empty that fund; the stupid bookkeeping that happens currently won’t hold a candle to that scenario.

                      Bill Clinton was impeached because he told a lie about his sexual peccadillos. We haven’t yet seen the extent of lies Trump is going to come up with, although I think we’ve had a pretty good preview. Yes, the sun will come up tomorrow, our salvation is not in any politician, no matter who sits on the throne we can still hunker down and pray, and all of us will eventually die. Adam above is right – as long as there’s not rioting in the streets, it’s not the immanent collapse of everything, and gridlock is hard to get past. And I’m still very apprehensive.

                      No, I did not vote for Clinton, either; like Chaplain Mike, I wrote in the name of a qualified, competent person – I could do that because I knew my state would never be handed to Trump. Trump supporters are going to find out that their buyers’ remorse is going to be UUUUGE.


                  • Suzanne, +1 to everything you’ve said in your several comments. The Republican Party is owned by Trump now, and they know it. They kept their seats in Congress because of his voting base; they know if they alienate that base, or Trump, they will get ousted. He’s calling the shots, even if he needs to be shown the ropes. He owns the Republican Congress, and they won’t resist him, because to do so would be political suicide. As for the Supreme Court, well, as one former President was reported to have said when told that the Supreme Court had found his actions unconstitutional: do they have an army?

                • Radagadt, i am literally poor and do not have other options.

                  • Numo,

                    Then I understand your angst and I am sorry. We will need to see where he focuses. He is not the typical right wing conservative… I believe he is more of a moderate, and Numo, the Affordable Care Act does need fixing, if only because insurance companies are abandoning it in droves and premiums are going up so that they may out of reach for many even with incentives. … and that would not help you either.

                    Hang in there and lets see where this ride takes us. I also have my concerns…

                    • I agree the ACA needs some work, but Trump has promised to destroy it and start over, not revamp it. What happens between destruction and new implementation? I guess if people die, oh well.

                • Headless Unicorn Guy says

                  In some ways he’s like a Perot, so it will be interesting to see what is going to happen.


                  In a lot of ways, Trump IS the Ross Perot of 2012. (Though Perot himself played a cards-close-to-the-chest “trust me” Messiah shtick while Trump let it all hang out.) My parents were Perotistas in 1992 and I remember the nonstop high-pressure WITNESSING to Accept Ross Perot as My Personal LORD and Savior. (That’s the only way I can describe it; especially the way my stepmother read her own agenda into Perot’s never-say-anything-specific just “Trust Me. I have a Secret Plan.”)

                  One thing that puzzles me is though Messiah politics pops up in American elections every 20 years or so, this time it’s hanging on for a LONG time. Obama pulled off a successful Messiah campaign presentation in 2008, but eight years is a LONG time for Messiah politics to last.

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Trivial selfish upside – my Leftists friends who have been poo-poo-ing me and patting my head when I assert that they are disconnected and underestimate how dangerous rural voters are – I get a very robust I-told-you-so.

          Which is another reason for Triumph of The Trump.

          All the poo-pooing, tsk-tsking, and condescending pat-pat-pats on the head from Our Enlightened Betters with their Superior Intellects and Attitudes on both Left Coasts. Until “I’M MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE!” boils over.

          And a pattern I noticed on the House election maps (which are itemized by congressional district): A LOT of states’ districts were all red EXCEPT for districts corresponding to major cities, which were bright blue. I remember picking out Pittsburgh, Allentown-Bethlehem, Louisville, Memphis, Nashville, Kansas City, Omaha, Greater Chicago, Denver, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston, Indianapolis, Detroit, Miami, Tampa — all islands of blue isolated in a sea of red.

          This tells me that a lot of the Trump vote was rural areas and the Hillary vote was major cities. My writing partner in a rural part of PA confirmed this reporting that he had NEVER seen such a heavy turnout in his (rural) county. Again, sticking it to Our Enlightened Betters in the cities who sneer at “flyover country” and its stupid ignorant redneck hicks.

          And echoes something Slacktivist mentioned on his neverending Left Behind thread — the power struggle between rurals and cities, and how the rurals keep painting towns and cities as Wicked and Sinful (unlike our Righteousness) to keep the next generation from abandoning the sheep dip and moving to the towns. How in LB, what kicks off everything is a magical fertilizer “which returns the rural small towns to the position of power to which their Righteous Moral Rectitude entitles them”.

          • “This tells me that a lot of the Trump vote was rural areas and the Hillary vote was major cities.”

            I noticed this back in the 2000 election (and checked every one since). I looked at voting by county and urban counties overwhelmingly voted Democrat and rural counties overwhelmingly Republican. That is the real divide in this country – it is not gender, race, age, income, etc. (though there is some division there) – the real divide is urban versus rural. That’s why my state – Missouri – is a swing state (until recently) – the population is almost evenly divided between St. Louis/Kansas City metro areas and everywhere else.

            Rural people have a different way of life than urban people (or think they do). They tend to be more independent (or think they are – less government ‘interference’) and urban people tend to be more dependent on services. That’s why gun control is such a big issue for rural people. When it takes 20 minutes for the law to arrive (as it does in my area), you’d better be able to take care of yourself for a while.

          • Patrick Kyle says

            “— the power struggle between rurals and cities, and how the rurals keep painting towns and cities as Wicked and Sinful (unlike our Righteousness) to keep the next generation from abandoning the sheep dip and moving to the towns. How in LB, what kicks off everything is a magical fertilizer “which returns the rural small towns to the position of power to which their Righteous Moral Rectitude entitles them”. Those in rural areas or who hold more rural values are done having their lives and rights dictated by the urban areas. We are done being force fed your ‘enlightened’ morality. We are sick of your condescending judgments against those who hold conservative views. We stood up and said ‘No.’

            • I live in a rural area, an have most of my life, so I can speak to this. People in our area have not adapted well to the modern world. They are decent people, hard working, family oriented, and intelligent. But they are also isolated from the bigger world, terrified of change, and are seeing their children move away in droves. They claim, as you do Patrick, that people in more urban areas don’t understand them, but in my experience, they make no effort to understand big city dwellers. I travel to big cities several times a year as my children live there. When I return, I almost always get comments like “I don’t know how your kids can live there!” “Aren’t you afraid to go there?” “Oh, we are so glad you got back safely!” When I shop in an ethnically diverse part of the nearby city, I’ve been called a badass for being brave enough to go there.
              They want life to be as it was in the 50s & 60s, when there was a GE plant in the nearest small town that employed many, the high school was the social center, you never had to think about a black, or Hindu, or even atheist because there weren’t any to think about, and there were still signs on the edge of town stating that blacks had to be outside the city limits by sundown. The GE plant is long gone, there are now minorities in town, and some people (gasp!) don’t go to church. That is reality and refusing to accept it and adapt has a far greater influence on the local economy & quality of life than the president or the “enlightened” liberals you so malign.

        • Patrick Kyle says

          “how dangerous rural voters are ” This. Right. Here. We are right to distrust you and people like you. What do you do with a group that is ‘dangerous’? You marginalize, you dominate, you eradicate…

          • As a counterpoint, that is perhaps how the rural voters have felt (marginalized), thus the appeal of Trump.

          • You hit the nail on the head. Anyone who holds values different than liberals are hicks, uneducated and unenlightened.

            We need re-education. Maybe tied up and forced to watch Miley Cyrus videos or listen to the Holywood elites lecture us on marriage and family (they should know they have had two or three).

      • It’s not over, not yet. Our institutions do have some resilience.

        However, it is also true that it is very hard for liberal, democratic institutions to stand up to the incursions of a strongman, backed by sufficient support. Our institutions have always depended on a certain amount of self-restraint in leaders — a willingness not to go too far into forbidden territory. However heated American politics has been, there’s been a enough self-censure and course correction to keep us from pressing too hard.

        If Trump is willing to go there, there must be opposition to what he is doing. I think there will be.

        The greatest danger may be that there will now be great incentive for Republicans to go along with him. If that isn’t an immediate problem, it will be down the road: conservatism will no longer be conservatism, but will have learned it can survive as a nationalist movement.

        The greatest hope is that there’s approximately half of the country, and some unknown number of Trump voters, who are not on board with what the shriller Trump supporters want.

        • Also, there’s always the chance that Trump won’t do half the things he implies he might do. He’s clearly capable, but it’s not always clear to me what ideas actually motivate him.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            And like Obama, there’s going to be a lag time of “I made it. Now what?”

            • I saw that movie too, HUG, ordered it special from Netflix about a month ago for just this occasion. Robert Redford in The Candidate.

              ” What do we do now, Marvin? What do we do?

        • Government institutions and programs do not die easily, as I see this everyday as a major government contractor. I think we spend an inordinate amount of time, money and resources protecting social groupings from feeling marginalized. We ignore realities. We now protect behaviors of groups wanting to express themselves when those behaviors infringe on the well being of others around them and justify the physical display of anger and destruction of property.

          We need to get back to some basics. One thing it seems Americans did agree on is that they want more pot legalization. This will have a nice calming effect on the masses and increase the laissez-faire attitude and the girl scouts will be able to sell more cookies to support the increased demand as a result of the munchies …..

          • The things you imply are very frightening, Radagadt. You might as well come out and say who you’re talking about. You won, your candidate won, and it’s a bad thing for most of us. Even those who avidly supported him.

            • Numo,

              I am not talking about anyone except a story I read today about more states going for legalization of pot. I did not vote for Trump and as Chaplain Mike did I wrote someone in only because I had some character concerns. As for the pot stories and at one time early in my life being a heavy smoker, I am concerned. And as for my comments on social groups, well, I ran into someone yesterday who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time a few months ago. He was walking home from work in an urban area when a social group was “peacefully protesting”. A few for the cause (not representing the majority to make it clear) took to shoving him against a pole where a big bolt on the poll cracked his head open and he was left to bleed out. Luckily some folks got to him quickly…. so I guess that was me expressing my emotion in probably the wrong forum….

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          The greatest hope is that there’s approximately half of the country, and some unknown number of Trump voters, who are not on board with what the shriller Trump supporters want.

          I remember that in 2008 Obama also attracted a lot of really shrill fanboy types. (And some really scary ones.) Who after the election expected him to walk on water, wave his hand (“HOPE! CHANGE! HOPE-CHANGE!”) and fix everything — especially giving THEM a share of Power.

  10. I’m so sick of the experts who assured us that demographics would defeat The Bully. Wrong, wrong, wrong! They should find other work. I doubt that I’ll ever listen to them again.

    • Adam Tauno Williams says

      Oh yeah. Now we will have two days of non-stop why-the-polls-were-wrong, etc… And next cycle … the media will spend most of the time talking about the poll results. Sigh. I remember the time – back when I used to listen to NPR – I heard an hour long interview with a mathematician explaining why polls don’t mean anything followed by a long segment dissecting various polls in create detail. One of the reasons I gave up on them; deaf even to themselves.

      On the other hand
      – First latina elected to the US senate
      – First Indian-American woman elected to the US house
      – First formerly undocumented immigrant elected to the US house

      Things happened that reflect the data; and that is just on the federal level
      The one thing nobody can predict – who will actually vote.

      • –> “…deaf even to themselves.”

        Oh, man…so true. Why did the polls get it wrong? Because they’re flawed!!!

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        Ever heard the one that the only reason we have elections is to see if the polls were right?

    • Regarding the media: “Make no mistake. This is an epic fail. And although eating crow is never appealing, we’ll be digesting feathers and beaks in the next weeks and months — and maybe years.” Margaret Sullivan w/ The Washington Post

      • The problem with most of the press in this particular election was they were so sure of a Clinton victory that failed to be objective. I saw many anti-Trump articles, but maybe only ONE in which anyone tried to get inside the heads of Trump supporters. I think if the press had dug a little deeper (and not been so enamored with Clinton), they might’ve seen there was a chance she’d lose. I mean, why did no one write an article breaking down the election like it was a football game, showing the strengths and weaknesses of EACH team, and how each team might win and lose?

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Even today (hangover day?), MSNBC’s newsfeed keeps stressing that “Hillary Won the Popular Vote!”

  11. Klasie Kraalogies says

    Well, we are stunned up here north of the 49th. Ex-colleagues sent me messages to say that they are scared. I have tried to encourage them. This is a dark day.

    On the lighter side last night as his victory started to become clear, Immigration Canada’s web page actually crashed because of the amount of traffic!

    • If I were a public political opponent of Trump or his cadre, l would be very scared. If he goes through on his promise to appoint a special prosecutor into Hillary Clinton, we will know that members of the press, the general media and political figures that have the backbone to stand up against him will receive similar treatment. I think he will go through with it.

      • Fear not, Robert. Obama will pardon her as one of his last acts in office.

        • Klasie Kraalogies says

          He can only pardon people that have actually been found guilty of a crime.

        • Oscar, You didn’t hear me. It’s not just her that I fear for. It’s the journalists; it’s the women who came forward to accuse him of groping them; it’s judge Curiel; it’s all those who have dared to criticize him, and against whom he holds his increasingly powerful, and ruthless, grudges.

      • This is one of the weaknesses of the Republican Party and one most in the ranks find a waste of time – appointing of special prosecutors. It sets a precedence that you go after your opponents in court… I predict (and hope) that those statements will not be acted upon….

  12. Andrew Zook says

    It’s hard to find a sliver lining… but the only hope I see of one is pulling together as #nevertrumpers. We’re going to have to stand tighter and with people we may disagree with on everything else to get through this. And we’re going to have to come together in ways beyond a vote, a march or an online comment section. If we stay in our isolated, individualistic cocoons, his of-one-mind mob overruns us…

    • Adam Tauno Williams says

      > And we’re going to have to come together in ways beyond a vote,

      I will drink to that!

  13. As an African-American, I have to give the the Alt-right its due, and admit…

    THEY ARE ROCKING………right now.

    THEY’VE GOT IT GOING ON………right now.


    (The above is to be heard in my Black Baptist peaching voice.)

  14. Burro [Mule] says

    One good thing occurred.

    Donald Trump destroyed both the Republican and Democratic parties last night. No need to be so Manichaean about everything. No, I don’t think he’ll be able to govern effectively. No, I don’t think he’ll be able to control the events that are swiftly coming at him, the first of which will be a financial meltdown. It would have been more satisfying to watch Clinton try to control things and spiral madly out of control.

    But Americans, like their British cousins, don’t want the homogenized, technocratic future the Tony Blair/Hillary Clinton/Davos crowd have planned out for us. We are boldly going were no one has gone before. We’re in uncharted territory now.

    The mainstream media lost total control of their audience light night. 4chan, Drudge and Alex Jones basically won the election. I expect a bloodbath as our true rulers move to reconsolidate their power in these lawless regions. It will be a little harder now that Hillary won’t be running things, but I still fully expect them to try.

    I’m thinking that the Democrats are wishing they had nominated the old socialist instead. He’s have brought the Upper Midwest in.


    the alt-right
    Matt Drudge
    Alex Jones
    the guys down at my bike shop
    frat bros
    Chateau Heartiste
    Marco Rubio [watch his star rise. he won’t be making any Gang of Eight deals this term]
    Vladimir Vladimirovich
    Mme. La Presidente LePen
    bullies of every variety


    Jorge Ramos
    refugees of any stripe
    Lena Dunham and those like her
    Wall Street [their revenge will be swift and unflinching]
    The Huffington Post
    Michael Moore [the only one on the Left clear-thinking enough to understand that Trump wasn’t about hatred of brown people, but hatred of oligarchs]
    the bullied

    I’m too old and lazy, but maybe some of the more diligent and hopeful can rebuild the Democratic and Republican parties from the smoking rubble.

    PS 30% of Latinos voted Trump. My guess is that the preponderance of them were male. This election was so much about gender issues it wasn’t funny. If the Dems had nominated Liz Warren instead of the Basilisk, you’d have had your woman President.

    • Burro [Mule] says

      Sorry – should have put Michael Moore in the WINNERS: column

    • I’d say he destroyed a great part of Christianity as well. It’s been unmasked as a power grabbing country club that wants to rid the country of those not in the club. When standing on the rooftop and being offered earthly power for fealty to the demonic side, they chose the power.

      We had bats in the attic and got rid of them by torching the house.

      • –> “I’d say he destroyed a great part of Christianity as well.”

        Hopefully that’s the WORST part of Christianity.

        • Never has evangelicalism’s attachment to power been more obvious. The power grab will cheer many the insiders and further alienate everyone else.

        • No. It is Christianity. It always has been. This is American Christianity.

        • Rick Ro, destruction, unfortunately, is not usually that selective. I don’t think this is a controlled burn…

        • Headless Unicorn Guy says

          Anyone else notice God’s Anointed Choice for President gets scuzzier and skankier with each election?

          Once, GOP hopefuls had to make pilgrimage to BJU to receive God’s Anointing. This time, the MenaGAWD made pilgrimate to Trump Tower to deliver the Anointing. Awe Kaesar.

      • And I’ve already heard one friend state that people prayed about this election and Trump was elected, so it must be God’s will.

      • That Other Jean says

        “We had bats in the attic and got rid of them by torching the house.”

        That we did. And, as usual, we’re great at wrecking stuff, but not so good at building. And there’s a storm coming. Now what?

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      I’m thinking that the Democrats are wishing they had nominated the old socialist instead. He’s have brought the Upper Midwest in.

      One thing Sanders had in common with Trump that was important in their appeal:
      Neither Trump nor Sanders sounded like every word out of their mouths was scripted by spinmeisters and vetted in advance by polls and focus groups. And that refreshing contrast made them stand out.

      However, Sanders could not be permitted to stand against the HILLARY! HILLARY! HILLARY! machine.

      • If the Democratic machine had given Bernie support rather than the shaft, he would be the one making the victory speech.


        • Headless Unicorn Guy says


          I’ve heard it said that any dem except Hillary could beat Trump by a landslide and any rep except Trump could beat Hillary by a landslide. And each party ended up with their literally weakest and worst candidate.

  15. Upside: There will more moments than it will be possible to count when I can laugh at this clown of a President. He’s a walking, talking joke, and the comedians will have lots of lacerating fun with him….as long as he doesn’t find ways to sue them or put them in jail, thin-skinned as he is.

    • That’s true. I can hear Jimmy Kimmel’s joke tonight: ‘In his acceptance speech Trump said we owe a great debt to Hillary for her years of service. And to show his appreciation he announced he will lock her up on January 20th.’

    • Got to admit Saturday Night Live has been a hoot these last few months. The Donald is thinned skinned. Obama was thin skinned too. Bush was the last thick skinned President… and he had the good presence of mind to stay out of the election (though he has become buddies with Clinton and Obama)….

      Trump will have to learn the ropes just like the others. He has not been a politician, does not have a politicians filter so … yes… look for some comedic relief.

    • Another upside: This is going to be great for the writers. Will this warrant Ray Bradbury humor? Beatniks? A lost generation? All seem possible. Luckily all make for good books.

    • Robert, I don’t know when I’ll be ready to laugh at Trump. This is serious.

      George W was easy to laugh at (but I could never laugh at Cheney; that was serious too). The only sad part about George W leaving office was no more David Letterman sketches of “Great Moments in Presidential Speeches.”

      • Ted, Men (and women) have made jokes on the way to the gallows to be hung. Sociologist (and amateur theologian) Peter Berger includes humor as one of the signals of transcendence, signals that indicate that within humanity that transcends, and defies, death. I will laugh at the clown Trump, though clowns are also scary.

        • Normally I’d agree with you, Robert, and I love a good political cartoon (or a Dave Letterman sketch, may his name and memory live on).

          But this may take some time. Everything Trump has said has been bullying, intent upon destroying individuals rather than addressing issues or building for a better country. It’s all talk, and much of it has been nasty.

          My antenna went up a year ago when he called out Carly Fiorina for, uh, not being pretty in his eyes? “Look at that face!” he said. “Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president?”

          Or after the debate, when he spent the whole week trying to convince the American people that Miss Venezuela was a disgrace because, as a commodity, her value as Miss Universe had depreciated because of her gaining weight.

          Never mind the locker-room talk video.

          His acceptance speech sounds hopeful, but it’ll take some time to be able to laugh at this mess.

          • Ted – agree completely. This is unprecedented, and I’m scared. For so many people, not just myself.

          • Ted and numo,
            I have no illusions about the degree of evil that can be expected from Trump, and the Republican Party that is right now falling in lock-step behind him. Conservative ideals of small government? Now a joke. Respect for Constitutional limits as a hallmark of conservative political philosophy? Forget about it. If I were a young man, I’d be out in the streets with the protesters today. The next years will be a battle for the soul of our country. And that’s no exaggeration.

  16. To quote some here quite recently:”vote and then go out and live like a disciple” (i think this is correct). Now let’s go and do it.

    • Dan from Georgia says

      Agreed. Works both ways (i.e., regardless of who won early this morning). We are to be disciples.

      • Reminds me of the bumper sticker on a Catholic priest’s car “If you love Jesus, live like it! Any damn fool can honk.”

  17. I cannot predict what will happen now except that I will dig my foxhole deep, withdraw my opinions even more, and trust in Jesus for my peace of mind. This election has proven me politically stupid. How could I, and others with far more education and intelligence, have been so wrong? It’s humbling. In my old age, fear has finally found me. Today’s silver lining is that there are only 95 days to MLB Spring Training in Florida. The Lord is still my shepherd.

  18. Well the American people were presented with an awful choice and they made an awful choice. The Republicans have claimed they want to take America back so we’ll see how far back they take us. 1954? 1934?

  19. The Religious Right saw its Faustian bargain come through. Cheers to them on THAT part. But let’s see now what Mephistotrump will do for them. Advancing the Gospel? Yeah, right!

  20. Maybe, just maybe, people should listen to those who voted for Trump and try to understand where they are coming from, rather than make assumptions. There appear to be a lot of people who felt they were being ignored, especially on the economic front.

    • You’re very right. Some of those people voted for Bernie, some took a more right-wing approach to the problems facing “Middle America.” The question is, at what point do you stop trying to offer compassion to people and start saying, “No” in God’s name. Methinks for the great one himself it came during his very first speech last July when he said Mexico was sending us criminals, drug dealers, and rapists.

    • I’ve tried throughout the process to see that point of view. Had he been noble and visionary in his approach to it I would see it. Bringing the disenfranchised citizenry back to reclaim the people’s democracy from the elites. The problem is that he lacks nobility and vision. It’s not restoring democracy, it’s grabbing the power to kick their ass, beat the sh#% out of them, shame and humiliate them. That is the base instinct that has been his lure and which has found broad acceptance. Join me and you’ll be able to shove people into the ground. That’s the disturbing and disgraceful part of his broad appeal. I wish it were a more noble promise to break the gridlock and dysfunction but I fear that is only the trapping of respectability that has helped people past the cognitive dissonance. Yes people are pissed off but his solutions appeal to a Nazi fascist sentiment more than a democratic one.

      • Maybe that is an indication of just how hurting and frustrated many of those people were. They were willing to look past all that, and gamble on “change” from an “outsider”. I am not saying their solution was right, but we should listen to better understand.

      • Burro [Mule] says

        Nobody noble and visionary wanted to touch the concerns of the Deplorables with a ten foot pole. It would have meant ostracism from the K Street club, cancelled invitations, raised eyebrows at the cocktails-an-Evian water parties.

        No. It needed a high octane a$$hole like Trump.

        Admit it.

        • I admit it. That high octane a$$hole represents America now. Perhaps we will become a nation of the same. Hoorah! Good times.

        • “Nobody noble and visionary wanted to touch the concerns of the Deplorables with a ten foot pole.”

          Mule, I believe Bernie would have tried. He was actually listening to people.


          • Burro [Mule] says

            I believe so too, Dana, but he didn’t know how to play to the non-white components of the Democratic coalition. That cost him in the Southern Democratic primaries. Bernie’s a principled guy, not a glorified ward boss like the Clintons. I would have liked to have seen Jim Webb do better in the Dem primary, but the whole election was a referendum on globalism and immigration. Nobody grabbed this semantic space except Trump.

            It will be interesting to see how Trump handles LEGAL immigration; the H1-B visas and so forth that Silicon Valley and the Vampire Capitalists are so addicted to. Rises in the H1B program have always enjoyed bipartisan support in Congress. Hillary wanted to eliminate the caps.

            • Headless Unicorn Guy says

              And the H1B program HAS been abused — by employers. Stories and urban legends going around the tech industry. Collect applications, reject them all, and then apply for H1Bs from India because you just couldn’t find anyone qualified.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            But Bernie could not be permitted to stand against HILLARY! HILLARY! HILLARY! and had to be run over by the bus.

      • Absolutely, ChrisS. I know enough of history to know that once the pitchforks and ropes come out, the mob gains a momentum of its own that is impossible to control and unlikely to stop. The blood of innocents easily mixes with the guilty.
        I completely understand people’s frustration and need to get their message across. But then why did they re-elect so many GOP to the Congress? I’m not sure they want change as much as they want a dictatorship.

        • Yup.

        • I think they see the executive branch as having much more power to change things than the legislative branch, so there was not as much effort to produce options to vote for.
          Likewise, people seem to like their own representative/senator. It is all the other ones they like to blame.

    • Marcus Johnson says

      Yeah, but no. Besides, I’ve heard from the Trump supporters long before they were Trump supporters.

      I’ve seen them chase LGBT persons from my church and claim that they were either pedophiles or probably sexually deviant because they were abused as children. I’ve heard them claim that they treat everyone equally, then reference me, a Black man, as “one of the good ones.” I’ve seen them all excited to fight sex trafficking, but they don’t recognize their own church community’s reluctance to nurture women leaders, even when their denomination claims to be egalitarian.

      Then I’ve seen them claim that they don’t like Congress, and they need change, then turn around and elect the same congressmen year after year. I’ve seen them angry about the loss of jobs they never wanted or held to illegal immigrants, but they won’t support minimum wage increases or discrimination protection or labor unions. I’ve seen them claim that they need real plans, then support a man who neither has his own plan nor can speak intelligently about the plans he reads off a teleprompter.

      I’ve seen their Facebook posts, Twitter feeds, heard them at church potlucks and endured them on road trips to conferences.

      In the end, there’s nothing that they have left to tell me that I haven’t heard in 36 years of living, 10 years of attending my church, or the past year of this election cycle. I’m more interested in listening to the people they, their candidate, and his platform rejects than hearing the same thing over and over again.

      • My experience, too, Marcus, although I am white so I don’t have to face as many fears as you. Change, sure, but here in Indiana, the GOP gubernatorial candidate had no experience, but won handily anyway. I don’t think a Democrat won even small races. In the neighboring county, a guy who died last week won. I don’t think change is what people want, but power that they don’t have to share with others. Especially others who have different colors and religions.

  21. Chill OUT people! You all sound like a bunch of Republicans after the ’08 election! Get some perspective and digest that cool-aide you drank for the past year.

    God is in control so quit trying to blame evangelicals for the’08 election. No doubt you were singing the praises of our first black president and calling him a “uniter”.

    I prefer a “wait and see” attitude. More than likely he will be better than you feared and worse than his supporters had hoped.

    By the way, I didn’t vote for him because he appears to be a vile person. The other one is thoroughly corrupt so I couldn’t vote for her either. And the others are just clowns.

  22. The election was about globalism or nationalism( as was Brexit that was trashed by media). I’m going to quote Chesterton concerning the balance that is Christianity……..”If anyone wants a modern proof of all this, let him consider the curious fact that, under Christianity, Europe has broken up into individual nations. Patriotism is a perfect example of this deliberate balancing of one emphasis against another emphasis. The instinct of the Pagan empire would have said, “You shall all be Roman citizens, and grow alike; let the German grow less slow and reverent; the Frenchmen less experimental and swift.” But the instinct of Christian Europe says, “Let the German remain slow and reverent, that the Frenchmen may the more safely be swift and experimental. We will make an equipoise out of these excesses. The absurdity called Germany shall correct the insanity called France.”
    In the USA we have staked the balance of the Christian instinct within one nation. So it’s a very difficult balancing act indeed. We can’t all be alike. Let’s drink to the diversity within the USA, where all of God’s children can thank God, we are free at last.

  23. Klasie Kraalogies says

    Here is my advice to my American friends: Don’t wail. Go out and be nice to you Hispanic neighbours. Help a refugee. Invite ypur Muslim neighbour for dinner. Support your local paper in terms of press freedom. Buy from all countries. Support civil rights and civil liberties. Be a beacon of exceptance, freedom and decency. Above all, do not hate.

  24. What I fear most is not the orange one himself – his attention span seems to be short and his actual desire to kick people once they’re down evaporates past the first kick. But he has many who will be clamoring for him to do more, more, more and for the rest of us to do more, more, and more. Remember, the KKK, the anti-Semitic corners of the web, and right-wing “militias” didn’t endorse Romney or McCain. They were all over Trump.

    Though the situation is quite different, I do believe the Barmen Declaration has some good words for us today: The Christian Church… has to testify in the midst of a sinful world, with its faith as with its obedience, with its message as with its order, that it is solely [Christ’s] property, and that it lives and wants to live solely from his comfort and from his direction in the expectation of his appearance. We reject the false doctrine, as though the Church were permitted to abandon the form of its message and order to its own pleasure or to changes in prevailing ideological and political convictions.

    There’s more if you google it: I’m not getting stuck in moderation for putting up a link!

    • There’s more if you google it: I’m not getting stuck in moderation for putting up a link!

      I’ll take the chance… 😉

    • Christians in this country are not known for their attention to history, even history as recent as that.


      • Which is a problem because if your Christianity is only culturally-based, how do you continue to be faithful to Christ when your culture turns against him? You can’t. It’s that simple. If you tried to make your Christianity “relevant” to the kind of people who excused bigotry and hatred by voting for Donald Trump, you have a colossal mess on your hands… a mess that could justly be called no longer a church.

  25. Dan from Georgia says

    Someone here reminded us to “vote, and then go out and be disciples.”

    Works both ways people.

  26. I am shaking my head at the decision that half of my country made, hitching their political wagons to someone who is like a box of chocolates where each one is filled with hot pocket filling.
    I wonder if this political decision parallels the election of Hitler… I will be reading my Bonhoeffer for clues.

    • “I wonder if this political decision parallels the election of Hitler”
      I don’t think there is a lot of “if” there. Yes, it is very similar.

    • It seems to me that Hitler and his close cronies were worse than many of their followers imagined (though they had no claim to say they didn’t know he was bad).

      It seems to me that Trump’s followers are far worse than the man himself. I am much more worried about disparate of his followers using his election as an excuse for targeted violence against immigrants, Muslims, liberals, etc., than I am worried about Trump actually getting off the toilet long enough to use the force of government directly against anyone.

      So certainly parallels, but non-parallels to be sure as well.

      • Wesley, read Erik Larson’s In the Garden of the Beasts. Almost no one thought Hitler was all that bad in the early years, even those that surrounded him. Those that got in his way, however, he destroyed. The Night of the Long Knives, don’t forget, was a purge of his own party.

        • I am sorry. As a student of history and especially events leading up to World War II I just can’t take any of this talk of parallels between Hitler and Trump seriously, just as I could not take those same parallels with Obama, who I didn’t agree with or Bush. Come on folks… you’re into pure emotion leading your brain at this point…..

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says

            Then can you give us your take on this re similarities and differences between 1933 Germany & 2016 America? Parallels & contrasts between events leading up to WW2 and those leading up to today?

            And Trump always struck me as more Il Duce — very bombastic over limited competence. Maybe 1920s Italy would be an alternate comparison. (For that matter, one of Obama’s “looking presidential” publicity shots in 2008 unknowingly copied Il Duce’s favorite jutting-jaw pose.)

  27. Btw thank you for the forum. I cant post this stuff in FB as I am pastor of a congregation who voted for “him who shall not be mentioned”

  28. Awakened by the cat puking at the foot of the bed.

    My feelings, exactly.

    • Cats only cough up hair balls, not elect them.

      I’m taking Slacktivist’s advice – this seems like a good time to dig into John’s Apocalypse.

  29. Remember, the battle is over and Christ won (No, I’m not talking about the election. Big Picture).

    It’s not about who won the election, it’s what we are going to do from now on. Many Americans did not like the direction the nation was headed, and felt there needed to be a change. Secular humanism does not have the answer, no matter how arrogantly we state it.

    There are many, many high minded, moral supporters for Mr Trump. Stop judging them! They do not march lock-step with the crowd and wish to think things through instead of jumping on current PC thought.

    Maybe we shouldn’t encourage illegal immigration but reward the law-respecting ones. Maybe we should allow people to practice their faith in public as long as it is not about killing people. In fact, maybe we shouldn’t have government sponsoring putting to death the inconvenient. Maybe we should be willing to help our fellow man instead of expecting the government to do it. Maybe we should put more power in the lands of communities and less in the federal government. Maybe we should be more open to new ways of thinking and doing things and pray to God for guidance.

    Just some humble thoughts. Calm down. Christ is King. Love your neighbor, all of them.

    • Dan from Georgia says

      Well put, pilgrim.

    • +1

    • “Maybe we should be willing to help our fellow man instead of expecting the government to do it.” Ok, pilgrim, I’ll be sending you the bill for the next person I know who can’t afford their medical insurance.

    • Maybe we shouldn’t reward sexual assault and bragging about it. But Trump’s supporters did. Maybe we shouldn’t support encouraging violence against political opponents. But Trump’s supporters did. Trump is not a conservative and any “conservative” who voted for him has made a pact with a grand deceiver.

      • Yes that is wrong. But keep in mind that also occurred with the circle of the other candidate too and covering it up or enabling that behavior is wrong also. My point is that you cannot throw stones yet deny what is in your own house. And unfortunately there was violence on both sides…..

    • “There are many, many high minded, moral supporters for Mr Trump. Stop judging them!”

      Handsome is as handsome does.

      • Adam Tauno Williams says

        “High Minded” and “Moral” are mutually exclusive. So – no. Morality exists at ground level; the High Minded have Theology, which is a scourge upon mankind.

        • Except…for the last 20, 30 years, fundygelicals were taught that there are NO morals apart from Christ. All Democrats or people who vote DNC are atheists, and atheists have no morals, because they deny the truth of Christ that they secretly know in their hearts.

          So no. Morality does not exist at the ground level. It only comes from above to those who are Real True Christians.

          I’m not speaking hypothetically. This is the thought process. This is what they teach and truly believe. Any lip service otherwise is surface deep. I can attest to this. My friends can. A whole generation can.

  30. that is, “power in the hands of communities”

  31. well, look at this way,
    if we don’t end up with a nuclear winter, I think we will now see the Republican Party do its thing to the max and the country can get it out of its system.

    Will we return to the days of my honorable parents (the WWII generation) ??? Probably not. But if they were here, they would make a connection between the one whose name we do not mention and the cursed name of Hitler, whom my parents’ generation fought against. We still have their DNA in our country. We may have forgotten much about history, but I think we are about to get a lesson in what we have forgotten, yes. And we deserve it; but our children don’t. Did people forget their children when they voted???? Is there such a rush to destroy everything we have stood for?????

    So now the man who said ‘if we have nuclear weapons, why don’t we use them?’ and the same man who wants to give nukes to Japan and S. Korea (for a profit, of course), he who is not a fan of NATO, but idolizes Putin who salivates after the Baltic states;
    it is into THIS person’s hands, we have given over the future of our children and our grandchildren ….. along with the nuclear codes. (the same hands that flutteringly mocked a disabled person like my own son with Down Syndrome)

    I’m not sure we will survive this. But I’m hopeful. (that’s my boomer DNA speaking).
    May God have mercy on our foolish ways. And may He have a care for our young, and for our disabled.

  32. On the bright side I hear he is going to turn the White House lawn into a par three course with a free mimosas per round. Cart fees will be pretty steep though as he wants to assure himself actual billionaire status before his term is up.

  33. Different name says

    I have to post this anonymously, because I need a safe space to process.

    I’m so sad. Just so, so sad.

    I’m trying, and failing, to find a place of love for the people in my congregation who voted their “good Christian conservative values,” and are celebrating their victory… while being utterly ignorant to how many Americans are feeling fearful, insecure, and threatened, because they’re not white Christians.

    In short, I don’t know how to pastor racists who don’t care to know that they’re racists.

    No, I’m not embellishing. I’ve had the conversations that back up my assertion.

    • I hear you. It’s the same at my church. And as I stated above, a friend from church said today that since people prayed about the election & Trump won, it must be God’s will.

      • Suzanne,

        Since it has been a while I can’t quite remember if you are one of the Catholic inhabitants of this blog. I m one of those. In my Church we are split down the middle, especially in my local parish: Conservative right – for the moral issues, progressive left for the social justice issues. What unites us is Christ but it also helps that Catholics don’t tend to mingle as much after Mass.

        I know this site seems to lean more liberal, progressive, – prayers to all who feel pain after these election results. I do not feel elation and am also guarded, for different reasons, but then I would have fhad the same guarded feelings had the results come out the other way.

        I just read an article written by Maureen Dowd that somewhat hits the nail on the head… something to digest as some of us figure out why America does what it does, especially over the last day…

    • Stay at home this Sunday. Or be as silent as possible from the pulpit. Let them sit.

      Then offer the table.

      • “Then offer the table.”

        beautiful comment ……. best I’ve read here, and I needed this image in my mind so thank you

    • “while being utterly ignorant to how many Americans are feeling fearful, insecure, and threatened, because they’re not white Christians.” so true Different name… I see this in my church too… all lilly white, well-off suburbanites who are completely clueless about the real concerns/fears and aspirations of others not like them, especially African-Americans (many who are followers of Christ as they claim to be)
      I actually confronted some on this and I’m usually a very non-confrontational, laid back, hate to pick a fight: I think they actually listened, at least for a little bit because of the shock of me confronting them… My tongue may be loosed more often like this and I guess I could thank trump for it…

  34. senecagriggs says

    The election is over –

    CASABLANCA: “We’ll always have Paris.”

    SENECA: “We’ll always have golf.”

  35. Can we keep in mind the young folks among us? i had to spend an hour talking this all out with my first time voter daughter who called from her dorm room at college. Many of these kids are terrified, and despite having had government classes a year or so ago, they don’t always realize that all those checks and balances really do make a difference. We elect a president, not a king. He can’t simply say “off with her head!” or wave his hand and have his goons cart off all the immigrants. I’ve been voting a long time and what I’ve seen is one party in power for a while, they the other comes in and swings things the other way. It’s a pendulum swing, really and generally those elected don’t turn out as bad as expected. Granted, the Donald is a loose cannon who isn’t actually a Republican in the first place. Still, we can always hope for the best. That said, I am praying for him to be humbled as surely as the king in the bible who lost his mind and went off and ate grass until he submitted to Yahweh.

    • What checks and balances?

      President. Senate. House. Justices. All red.

      • All red, and owned by Trump, who roused the base that kept them in control of Congress. The Republican Party can’t go back to the conservative principles of its legendary founders; it now relies completely on undisguised and unfiltered populism for its continued existence, political philosophy and principles be damned. Trump is the new prototype for the Republican Party; he may need them to show him the ropes, but they need him to remain viable as a party.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says

      — radio preacher during the heyday of Hal Lindsay
      (which I can’t get out of my mind now)

  36. Thank you so much, CM, for this relatively safe forum for expression, and to all for keeping it reasonably civil here at IM. It’s a big part of why I keep coming back.

    Some of my evangelical friends are sharing posts that say “Jesus is king no matter who wins the election” or some such, as if because of God’s sovereignty we can adopt a fatalistic approach. Makes me want to scream.

    We pray “thy kingdom come” and part of following Jesus is working to make that happen. In the here and now. And the shape of the society we live in can either make that easier or a lot harder. With the election of trump it just got a whole lot harder.

  37. James Gray says

    “It’s gonna be beautiful, you’re gonna love it.”- POTUS

  38. Both candidates thoroughly convinced me not to vote for their opponent . . . So l heeded their warnings and voted third party. About 60 million people voted for Clinton and Trump each. Can either side say that the other had that many deluded followers? Isn’t that just a tad bit judgmental? I imagine that all 120 million voters had quite the variety of motives and reasons, ranging from good to bad and brilliant to ridiculous. Did I vote correctly? I can’t say, but I am confident that Jesus is gracious to me in spite of my vote . . . so perhaps I should reflect the same graciousness to others . . . ?

  39. And now a musical interlude:

  40. Randy Thompson says

    It’s the end of a long, mentally and emotionally exhausting day.

    By way of encouragement to all, I’d like to share a word that’s been going through my head all day today, courtesy of St. Julian of Norwich, who said this in her “Revelations of Divine Love”:


  41. Good Job, everybody. I love this blog, wish I could talk like you all do. As I was reading all the comments here today, I knew I was on a Cristian blog. Golden Rule no doubt

  42. I know nothing about her music; her image has been off-putting to me. But I’m becoming a fan of Lady Gaga despite that, as the result of her continued and very public criticism of and protest against the President elect over the last few days. She’s putting her money where her mouth is; she’s smart enough to know how bullies operate, and that she’s making herself a potential target of this particular thin-skinned, grudge-holding bully, and she’s speaking out anyway, right out there in the streets with the others. I’m now a Little Monster.

  43. Headless Unicorn Guy says

    First reports of street action in New York (protests in front of Trump Tower) and California. All colleges and urban areas. Some very confusing.

    Check your churches (especially in rural areas) for any action/reaction this Sunday. I expect some craziness in the other direction — like pictures of Trump sharing space with the American Flags in the sanctuary.

    • I understand the anger of people who are protesting. If it had gone the other way people would have been angry as well (they were angry in 2008, 2012, 2000 . . .), but it’s unlikely people would be protesting in the streets as though they were going to change the result. Exactly what do these protesters expect to accomplish? Do they want the election to be overturned because they don’t like who won? That is not democracy; that is mobocracy. They apparently don’t understand how our country works, what the constitution says about elections and government. The remedy is not to burn the cities; it’s to vote out the people you don’t like the next time around (which is almost a certainty in this case) or remove someone from office for crimes committed during their term (which is also pretty likely in this case).

      • Greg,

        Agreed. What separates us from other places in the word is the smooth transition of power. Protesting clear results weakens this, violence because one did not get the desired result further weakens things. President Obama and Hillary Clinton sent the correct message yesterday. It is time we get behind and support the president elect.

        Additionally – everyone has the right to protest, but this becomes muddled when denying others right to free movement, the destroying of others property, the assault of others because one is angry.

        • Precisely my point in mentioning the young folks. If you know some, gently steer them in a positive direction. Keep in mind that they do not have years of experience with the election process. They also may be lacking in coping skills. Simply sharing your perspective that we all experience both wins and losses and that a calm and peaceful transition is the goal may be helpful to them. My daughter is already looking forward to two years from now.

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says

        They apparently don’t understand how our country works, what the constitution says about elections and government. The remedy is not to burn the cities…

        And the “burn the cities” remedy tends to invite stopping the burn By Any Means Necessary.

        One of my contacts (the Lehigh Valley one) has told me about reactions to the “Black Lives Matter” street actions getting out-of-hand. Protect Us from Them, By Any Means Necessary. Just talk now, but that was before this election pre-empted everything.